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Talk:Iranians in China

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Latest comment: 7 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

I agree with the guy below, wtf is this crap? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.46.224 (talk) 14:40, 26 June 2011 (UTC)Reply

This article could be very informative, because there were many Iranian people living in china throughout history, like the sogdians, the current tajiks of china, the sassanian family which fled to china after the arab conquests and ...

Instead, this article is mostly about Iranian women in china. Not only I disapprove the way it is written (which objectifies Iranian and specially Persian women) I also do not like the, let's say graphic contents. Is this article somebody's fantasy or something? To see what I mean, let's read this article and try to develop this page based on the same standards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_people_in_Iran حضرت محمود (talk) 07:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)Reply

Article has this string of words:

'There is a famous Tencent qq for Iranians in china Group name also is "Iranians in china" Group id is 237329365 Welcome all iraninas' (ending without a period). Some who knows what this is about is asked to make clear sentences of of that string of words. (PeacePeace (talk) 20:33, 23 June 2016 (UTC))Reply


Tang Dynasty edit

The city has remained a leading economic and cultural center and major port of foreign trade and external exchange since the Tang dynasty (618–907). Many Arab and Persian merchants lived in the city in the 7th century, but they were massacred in the thousands in 760 during the An Lushan Rebellion by Tian Shengong's (Chinese: 田神功; pinyin: Tián Shéngōng; Wade–Giles: T'ien Shen-kung) rebel insurgents during the Yangzhou massacre (760).[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]

During the Tang dynasty, many merchants from Silla also lived in Yangzhou.

The city, still known as Guangling, was briefly made the capital of Wu during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period.

References

  1. ^ Perkins, Dorothy (2000). Encyclopedia of China: The Essential Reference to China, Its History and Culture. Roundtable Press. ISBN 978-0-8160-4374-3.
  2. ^ Yarshater (1993). William Bayne Fisher; Yarshater, Ilya Gershevitch (eds.). The Cambridge History of Iran, Volume 3 (reprint ed.). Cambridge University Press. p. 553. ISBN 0-521-20092-X. Retrieved 2012-01-10. Probably by the 7th century Persians had joined with Arabs to create the foreign emporium on the Grand Canal at Yangchou mentioned by the New T'ang History. The same source records a disturbance there in 760 in which a thousand of the merchants were killed.
  3. ^ Jacques Gernet (1996). A history of Chinese civilization (2, illustrated, revised ed.). Cambridge University Press. p. 292. ISBN 0-521-49781-7. Retrieved 2012-01-10. The wealth of the foreign merchants established in the big cities may have provoked the xenophobia that became apparent during rebellions. In 760 several thousand Arab and Persian merchants were massacred at Yangchow by insurgent bands led by T'ien Shen-kung, and a century later, in 879, it was also the foreign merchants who were attacked at Canton under the troops of Huang Ch'ao.
  4. ^ Tan Ta Sen; Dasheng Chen (2009). Cheng Ho and Islam in Southeast Asia (illustrated, reprint ed.). Institute of Southeast Asian Studies. p. 104. ISBN 981-230-837-7. Retrieved 2012-01-10. these manliao ( j§ w) [Southern barbarians] would pollute the Chinese culture through intermarriage and upset the land ownership system through land acquisition. . .For example, in AD 760, Yangzhou was attacked by a nearby garrison troop led by Tian Shengong (HJ^ff-w), who was ironically invited by the local authorities to help crush a local uprising. Consequently, a few thousand Arab and Persian merchants were robbed and killed (Jin Tangshu, ch. 110). In the 830s, a mandarin in Guangzhou took steps to control the Arab and Persian Muslims by ordering that Chinese and barbarians must live in separate quarters and must not intermarry; barbarins were also not allowed to own land and paddy fields (Jin Tangshu, ch. 177) Thereafter, Arab and Persian traders lived in designated quarters . . .they also enjoyed religious freedom and kept their Islamic lifestlye intact. . .the Arab and Persian Muslims were also contented to stay out of the Confucian Chinese world so long as the authorities concerned pledged to provide aman [security] for them to lead a peaceful life according to the Islamic doctrines.
  5. ^ Jacques Gernet (2007). El mundo chino (in Spanish). Editorial Critica. p. 263. ISBN 84-8432-868-6. Retrieved 2012-01-10. en 760, varios millares de mercaderes árabes y persas fueron masacrados en Yangzhou por bandas insurgentes dirigidas por Tian Shengong; un siglo más tarde las tropas de Huang Chao la emprendieron también en Cantón con los mercaderes extranjeros.
  6. ^ 新江荣 (1999). 唐研究. 北京大學出版社. p. 334. ISBN 7-301-04393-7. Retrieved 2012-01-10. Deng Jingshan fßJSlll , the governor of Yangzhou, ordered general Tian Shengong Ш to lead his forces to suppress the rebels. Shengong entered Yangzhou in 760 and sacked the city, plunderSino-Arab
  7. ^ 新江荣 (1999). 唐研究. 北京大學出版社. p. 344. ISBN 7-301-04393-7. Retrieved 2012-01-10. But, Yangzhou was also a famous trade center with a large foreign community. Chinese sources record several thousand Arabs, Persians, and other foreigner merchants being killed in 760 AD when General Tian Shengong sacked the city during
  8. ^ Tan Ta Sen; Abdul Kadir; Abdul Kadir. Cheng Ho (in Malay). Penerbit Buku Kompas. p. 143. ISBN 979-709-492-8. Retrieved 2012-01-10. Misalnya, pada 760, Yangzhou diserang oleh pasukan tentara di bawah pimpinan Tian Shengong (ffltt^d) yang ironisnya diminta oleh penguasa setempat untuk membantu menumpas pemberontakan daerah. Akibatnya, ribuan saudagar Arab dan Persia dirampok dan dibunuh.22 Pada tahun 830-an, seorang pejabat tinggi di Guangzhou mengambil langkah untuk mengawasi orang orang Muslim Arab dan Persian degan memerintahkan orang China dan orang barbar harus tinggal di pemukiman terpisah dan tidak boleh kawin campur; kaum barbar tidak boleh memiliki tanah dan ladang sawah.
  9. ^ Jacques Gernet (1972). Le monde chinois (in Spanish) (2 ed.). A. Colin. Retrieved 2012-01-10. milliers de marchands arabes et persans sont massacrés à Yangzhou par les bandes insurgées que mène Tian Shengong; un siècle plus tard, c'est aussi aux marchands étrangers que s'en prennent à Canton les troupes de Huang Chao en 879.
  10. ^ Jonathan Neaman Lipman (1997). Familiar strangers: a history of Muslims in Northwest China (illustrated ed.). University of Washington Press. p. 27. ISBN 0-295-97644-6. Retrieved 2012-01-10. They dealt in a vast variety of commodities, and their numbers were not small.9 For example, Tian Shengong's soldiers killed thousands of Dashi and Bosi at Yangzhou in a Tang battle against local rebels. When Huang Chao's rebel army
  11. ^ Jonathan Neaman Lipman (1997). Familiar strangers: a history of Muslims in Northwest China (illustrated ed.). University of Washington Press. p. 26. ISBN 0-295-97644-6. Retrieved 2012-01-10. Ouyang, Xin Tang Shu 182.6b--a records the order of Lu Jun, governor of Lingnan at Canton, that foreigners and Chinese could not intermarry (Ch. Fan Hua bu de tong hun), in order to prevent conflict.

new source edit

Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Note that this is a known mirror of the article here and not acceptable as a source. Kuru (talk) 12:34, 23 February 2017 (UTC)Reply

This document is a contribution of blocked users and has long violated regulations. edit

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

Related to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Interracial_marriage/Archive_3#This_document_contains_false_information_about_Chinese_marriage.

This document is a contribution of blocked users and has long violated regulations.

(1) Blocked and single-purpose account

Most of the content in this document is the contribution of blocked account 'Hicklitwak'. [[1]] Hicklitwak (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)

Two users also made significant contributions to this document. but They are maybe single-purpose accounts. Chlernak (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam) Vhagakhtar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)

Their contribution should be discussed again after deletion


(2) 'Cherrypicking' and 'Neutral point of view'

For example [[2]] , The book says that many Muslim men have married a Chinese woman. The book generally mentions marriages between foreign immigrants and Chinese women.

The opposite case is only a one-time reference. The blocked user, however, covered up data on foreign men and exaggerated data on foreign women. Even the document does not mention numerous foreign men, but only foreign women and foreign slave.

It's a clear violation of regulations.

Only a small number of cases were referred to in excessive space allocation.


(4)'Faithless source' and 'false representation

This document is full of false information and source.


For example ,

/////A Sogdian merchant, Kang Weiyi had Indian, Central Asian, and Bactrians among the 15 slave girls he was bringing to sell in the Chinese capital of Chang'an.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][excessive citations] Khotan and Kucha both sold women for sexual services.[15][16]/////

This source is not academic but false data. Even false source do not give such testimony.

Even the stage of that cases is the Silk Road area, not China.......

Academic source say only: 'The few documented pairings of Chinese male owners with young Sogdian girls raise the question how often Sogdian and Chinese families intermarried. The historical record is largely silent on this topic, but Rong Xinjiang has found throughout Tang-dynasty China a total of twenty-one recorded marriages in the seventh century in which one partner was Sogdian, and in eighteen cases, the spouse is also Sogdian. The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives. 67 He concludes that most Sogdian men took Sogdian wives, and we may surmise that the pairings between Chinese men and Sogdian women were usually between a Chinese male master and a Sogdian female slave.' http://history.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/hansen-silk-road-trade.pdf This sentence is the only academic material.Other source are unreliable.The academic evidence is unclear. Also Sogdian men also married Chinese women. There is only anecdotal evidence. Blocked users distorted the source.


Conclusion

  • Minor cases for foreign women must be deleted from this document. But it's all a minority case.
  • Overall, the document needs to be initialized.
  • If we have to mention international marriages for foreigners, We must references to the numerous Persian men married to Chinese women.Bablos939 (talk) 12:47, 18 October 2020 (UTC)Reply


This page is about Iranians ( Persians and Sogdian ) presense in China not about marriage.
Many of the edits inside that page has nothing to do with the blocked user also a blocked user and it doesn't mean he was providing wrong information. There are even respected editors with reward an badges that were later blocked.
Indeed muslim men have married Chinese women but Chinese men also married muslim women and is already mentioned that muslim men marry Chinese women but like I said this page has nothing to do with marriage.
This wikipedia page did not claimed that Chinese men and Iranian women marriage was massive but it certainly existed and would be far more than just a few based on documented pairings.
Academic source did not say documented pairings represent undocumented pairing. Undocumented pairing would have been far more common.
The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Zoroastrianism
Michael Stausberg, Yuhan Sohrab-Dinshaw Vevaina
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YT-kBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA150
Quote
Before the An Lushan rebellion (756-763). Sogdian-Chinese intermarriages were were rare (Rong 2001: 132-135). After the rebellion, however, Sogdian-Chinese marriages became more and more common and Sogdians gradually lost their ethnic identities and became Sinicized (Chen 2001: 195-20 )
In Tang poetry Sogdian girls also frequently appear as serving maids in the taverns and inns of the capital Chang'an.[17]
"but Han men marrying Hui women could also become Hui"
Investment and Employment Opportunities in China
By Jeffrey Yi-Lin Forrest, Tao Lixin

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4m1YBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA67

Quote
Over time, the demographics of Guangdong slowly shifted with more Han Chinese and some Persian women massively migrating into the regions from the north during periods of political turmoil and nomadic incursions.
Memoirs of the Research Department
Quote
At the foreign quarter , there lited of course many foreign women , and they were called by the Chinese Po - ssu - fu .
Rong, Xinjiang, "New light on Sogdian Colonies along the Silk Road
In Tang poetry Sogdian girls also frequently appear as serving maids in the taverns and inns of the capital Chang'an.
The Silk Road Encyclopedia
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UgOwDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT763
"Persian women who worked at publich houses in Chang'an during the Tang dynasty. A large number of Persian women were hired to entertain guests...... these women were as Huji.....Huji appear a suprising number of times in the work of Li Bai and other poets from Tang dynasty"
Walter Joseph Fischel (1951). Semitic and Oriental studies: a volume presented to William Popper, professor of Semitic languages, emeritus, on the occasion of his seventy-fifth birthday, October 29, 1949. Volume 11 of University of California publications in Semitic philology. University of California Press. p. 407. Retrieved January 4, 2012.
Quote
"At least from the tenth to the twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Canton, in the former period observed in the harem of Liu Chang of Southern Han,” and in the latter seen as typically wearing great numbers of earrings and cursed with quarrelsome dispositions ..."
Persians women, Turkic women, Korean women were captured by Chinese and sold as slaves for hot commity
Daily Life in Traditional China: The Tang Dynasty
By Charles D. Benn
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=emPuDu97qbkC&pg=PA39
Quote
Persians captured by the Chinese pirates in the southeast; and Korean women, whose beauty made them a hot commodity in the housholds of the well-to-do.
Les sogdiens en Chine
Quote
" The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives.and we may surmise that the pairings between Chinese men and Sogdian women "
Quote
"Sogdian slave girls and their Chinese male owners made up the majority of Sogdian female-Chinese male pairings"
and by the way many Sogdians were muslims
Source: Bukhara, the Eastern Dome of Islam: Urban Development, Urban Space ... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sVgtKQdJrTMC&pg=PA18
"Soon after this many of the Sogdians, who had converted in masses to Islam, supported the Abbasid "revolution- " ( from 7th century )
Vamlos (talk) 17:13, 18 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
Your argument always falls under this. WP:RS WP:NEUTRAL WP:CHERRYPICKING

The only reliable academic material is stories about foreign men and Chinese women.

(B)China

Most of the international marriages of Chinese people take place between Chinese women and foreign men (B)-1 Tang Dynasty

Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.// many of them had married Chinese women. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

(B)-2 Song Dynasty

During the Song Dynasty , many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

(B)-3 Yuan Dynasty The great majority of Muslims who came to the East during the Yuan Dynasty were male ,only a few from the upper-class stratum brought their familiy members with them. so it was quite common for a Muslim to marry a Chinese wife. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

(B)-4 Ming Dynasty

'Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.'

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false

'Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did to Armenia. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.' 'Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to add unsourced or poorly sourced content, as you did at Sexual violence in South Africa, you may be blocked from editing.'

You should listen to other people's advice.Bablos939 (talk) 14:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

What does Armenia or Sexual violence have to do with this page ? Please keep the discussion with Iranians in China.
Again this page is not about marriages. The page does not talk about marriages. This is clearly just Maria Jaschok subjective opinion since many records show Iranian women ( Sogdian , Persian muslim ) had migrated to China. Where is the records that suggest that the great majority of muslims were male ? It would have been historically recorded by people of those time not Maria Jaschok interpretation. She said all accounts were males in Tang dynasty and Song dynasty. What a subjective mistake. If Maria Jaschok, the author of that book says there's rarely any account of female coming to China than why is there so many account? Please name these historical Iranian males ( Persian or Sogdian male accounts ) accounts of Iranians in China. Some famous names especially. There are many accounts of Persian women as dancers, wearing jewellery, accounts of Sogdian female sex trader, more importantly are the accounts of them being married to Chinese emperors, Chinese princes, Chinese nobles ect. Many Chinese women (some noble origin? ) married foreign merchants. And what are the names of these noble Chinese women ? You can name plenty of famous Chinese men who did.
Fake claims that Hui Chinese are descendants of Muslim ancestors, because all of them claim to be descent from Muslim ancestors when the majority are Han Chinese converts by DNA. That is why there are many books you cannot trust, some books are entirely based on the authors exaggerated claims and interpretation. More realiable would be records from the time of Tang dynasty and Song dynasty
Apart from other fake claims like no records of foreign women migrating to China. Where are the Muslim descendants in Yangzhou, Guangzhou, Fujian from the Song and Tang dynasty ? I though she said many married Chinese women ? Why are their descendants non-existant in those areas because the numbers can't be proven and are exaggerated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people The Hui Chinese are the only real evidence of muslim ( some in physically and genetically), so the book source from Maria for Yuan-Ming is only partially correct but still the majority have nothing to do with Muslim marriage but Han converts.
There's plenty of wikipedia pages that mentions Muslim men marry Chinese women and nobody is denying that. The problem is the proportion of numbers with subjective opinions estimates. But using Hui Chinese, based on genetic evidence. Nearly 7% Caucasian maternal ancestry ( 7 in 100 ) is obviously not few but significant. Saying only few is obviously a subjective opinion that can't be proven when you combine the history of different sources together. Historical intermarriages is extremely difficult to estimate. Some book source even says many Europeans, Chinese, Koreans, Middle East are descendants of Mongolian from the Mongol invasions but nothing more but subjective opinions.
PLENTY BOOK SOURCES THAT CLAIM HUI CHINESE ARE ALL DESCENDANTS OF FOREIGN MUSLIMS.
Obviously most were Han women married Hui men but something here must be said. Is that most Hui Chinese are Han descendants. Of course some Hui Chinese also have muslim Persian ancestry but vast majority do not have central/west Asian foreign ancestry.
GENETIC EVIDENCE SHOWS HUI CHINESE HAVE ANCESTRY OF MUSLIM FROM BOTH FOREIGN FEMALE AND MALE
7 out of 100 Hui Chinese can have Caucasian maternal ancestry
Source.. Different Matrilineal Contributions to Genetic Structure of Ethnic Groups'' in the Silk Road Region in China
https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/21/12/2265/1071048
Quote
"western Eurasian-specific haplogroup frequency was observed, with the highest frequency present in Uygur (42.6%) and Uzbek (41.4%) samples, followed by Kazak (30.2%), Mongolian (14.3%), and Hui (6.7%)''."
30 out of 100 Hui Chinese can have Caucasian paternal ancestry (29.6%)
The massive assimilation of indigenous East Asian populations in the origin of Muslim Hui people inferred from paternal Y chromosome
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.23823
Quote
"Co‐analyzed with published worldwide populations, our results suggest the origin of Hui people'' has involved massive assimilation of indigenous East Asians with about 70% in total of the paternal ancestry could be traced back to East Asia and the left 30% to various regions in West Eurasia."
Quote
"According to historical records, ethnic Hui in China obtained substantial genetic components from western Eurasian populations during their Islamization. However, some scholars believed that the ancestry of Hui people were native Chinese populations.
There are books sources that claim Hui Chinese are all descendants of mixture of Chinese and Central/West Asian but clearly the majority are not mixed, but are just converted native Chinese people which disrproves exaggerated claims.
Hui Chinese 70% Paternally East Asian and 93% Maternally East Asian. Proving thatthe Hui Chinese being mostly Muslim descent was completely wrong.Vamlos (talk) 16:09, 19 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ "唐代長安城中販賣給漢人的胡姬與絲綢之路上的女奴貿易". 每日頭條. 2018-03-31.
  2. ^ 郭, 雪妮 (2012) [2012（北京师范大学文学院北京100875）]. "酒肆论文摘要,唐代"胡姬"诗与现代日本的西域想象". 长安学刊 (3).
  3. ^ 森, 林鹿 (2015-11-25). "第6章 一年之计在于吃(5)". 唐朝定居指南.
  4. ^ 林梅村《粟特文买婢契与丝绸之路上的女奴贸易》，《文物》1992 年9 期，49—54 页；收入
  5. ^ 温翠芳，唐代长安西市中的胡姬与丝绸之路上的女奴贸易，西域研究，2006（2）
  6. ^ 《唐代长安西市中的胡姬与丝绸之路上的女奴贸易》，《西域研究》，2006年第2期。
  7. ^ 粟特文买婢契与丝绸之路上的女奴贸易林梅村文物
  8. ^ 粟特人与丝绸之路中文期刊论文目录 根据中国知网整理：方建勇(Fang Jianyong)/2006-2008年就读于浙江大学中国古代史研究生班
  9. ^ 温翠芳.唐代长安西市中的胡姬与丝绸之路上的女奴贸易.西域研究，2006（2）
  10. ^ 荣, 新江 (2014-09-09). "从撒马尔干到长安——中古时期粟特人的迁徙与入居（《中古中国与粟特文明》代序言）". Kaogu – via via 三联学术通讯.
  11. ^ "《唐朝定居指南》中的参考资料". 豆瓣.
  12. ^ "温翠芳特聘研究员". 西南大学伊朗研究中心. 2017-12-27.
  13. ^ Cite error: The named reference 从出土文物看唐代的胡人女性形象1 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  14. ^ 温翠芳《唐代长安西市中的胡姬与丝绸之路上的女奴贸易》（《西域研究}2006年第2期）
  15. ^ Trombert, Éric; de La Vaissière, Étienne (2005). "The Impact of the Silk Road Trade on a Local Community: The Turfan Oasis, 500-800" (PDF). Les sogdiens en Chine. Vol. Volume 17 of Études thématiques. École française d'Extrême-Orient. p. 299. ISBN 978-2855396538. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)
  16. ^ Whitfield, Susan (2015). Life along the Silk Road: Second Edition (2, reprint ed.). Univ of California Press. p. 90. ISBN 978-0520960299.
  17. ^ Rong, Xinjiang, "New light on Sogdian Colonies along the Silk Road : Recent Archaeological Finds in Northern China (Lecture at the BBAW on 20 September 2001)", in Berichte und Abhandlungen (17 December 2009); 10, S., p. 150.
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