Talk:Hossein Khan Sardar

Recent changes by user Parishan

Dear user, you changed one of the most fundamental parts of the article, backed up by modern scholarship (the encyclopædia of Iranica), while adding a source from the year 1939 as the supposed credit for these changes. Furthermore, you added an Azerbaijani Turkish transliteration, even though the official language of the Armenian Khanate (and Qajar Iran in general) was Persian. Therefore it was necessary for your edits to be reverted.
–Rye-96 (talk) 22:41, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I did not change anything. I specified that Hossein Khan Sardar was a khan (which he was, and even Iranica does not deny that) while adding that he was appointed to this position by the Shah. There is nothing in the 1939 source that is in contradiction with what Iranica says. Please show me what exactly is not in line with what is written in Iranica. The Azeri transliteration is required because this person came from a Turkic-speaking background, because the majority of the population of the Erivan Khanate was Turkic-speaking and because it was partly located on what is now Azerbaijan. It is undeniably part of Azerbaijani history. Parishan (talk) 08:49, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

You just want to Turkify the article, he was an Iranian, and Azerbaijani spelling is irrelevant. -- Kouhi (talk) 10:22, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Not an argument. Parishan (talk) 14:51, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Others already told you. Beside that, You CAN'T add Azerbaijani name. It's of no use here. It's a modern name. It's not a historical name. It is not mentioned in any primary source. -- Kouhi (talk) 15:09, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

No one had replied to my comment here. Your angry "nationalism" accusation is not a way to address a concern on a talkpage and cannot be taken for an argument. Furthermore, you are implicating yourself in even more bad-faith editing because you are removing not only the Azerbaijani name, but also sourced material.

The Azerbaijani name is relevant as the person in question is pertinent to Azerbaijani history. He ruled an area where most of the population spoke the language a reference to which you keep removing. Moreover, the person is of Turkic-speaking background, and the Sardar-Erivansky dynasty, after the Russian conquest, became an influential Azerbaijani princely family. Parishan (talk) 15:21, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

No, your "source" is outdated and you can't use that "source". Furthermore, at that time, Azerbaijani was written with Perso-Arabic alphabet and the official language was Persian. Origin and background does not matter. Mahmoud of Ghazni was also of Turkic origin, but you can't add Azerbaijani or Turkish spellings to that article. -- Kouhi (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Give me one reason why that source is "outdated and cannot be used". I hope you understand that simply saying "you can't" does constitute a valid argument.

If the script is the problem, I can add the spelling in Azeri using the Arabic script. Persian being the official language does not mean Azeri is irrelevant. In fact, Tadeusz Swietochowski refers to Erivan as an Azeri khanate (Tadeusz Swietochowski. Russian Azerbaijan, 1905—1920: The Shaping of National Identity in a Muslim Community. Cambridge, UK, Cambridge University Press, 2004. ISBN 0-521-52245-5).

Where do you get the idea that "origin and background does not matter"? Please cite a Wikipedia rule that stipulates so. Mahmoud of Ghazni is not a good example. He did not live in Azerbaijan. Hossein Khan was from a Turkic clan that was based in Azerbaijan. Parishan (talk) 15:43, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

The source is from 1939, we're in 2016. The source was written before WW II. The world has changed much. And without a primary source you can't write his name in Arabic alphabet, it would be an invented name without citing a primary source. It is irrelevant simply because there's no evidence to show a relation between "Azerbaijani language and Hossein Khan Sardar". First, cite a source to support the claim that he spoke Azerbaijani. Then, cite a primary source for Azerbaijani name in Arabic alphabet. And where do you get the idea that you can add Azerbaijani spelling simply because of his Turkic origin? He ruled a part of Iran. He is part of Iran's history, not Azerbaijan. Today country of Azerbaijan was also part of Achaemenid Empire, but does that mean you can add Azerbaijani spelling to Achaemenid Empire? -- Kouhi (talk) 16:28, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry, but there is no rule on Wikipedia that says that sources from 1939 should be considered outdated and not be used. Is there a better argument against that source? If not, it shall be restored.

The relation is that Hossein Khan was from a Qajar clan, and Qajars were an Azeri-speaking dynasty according to Iranica: [1] Moreover, the name is used three times in the final chapter of Mirza Adigozal Beg's 1845 historical chronicle Garabaghnameh (written in Azeri) as سردار‎‎ حسین خان.

The Erivan Khanate depended on Iran politically, but it was still a semi-independent state with its own centralized rule and currency, and I have just provided a source above from a prominent specialist on Middle Eastern history (Swietochowski) who calls the khanate an Azeri state. It is part of Azerbaijani history and an example of Azeri statehood. Its ethnic population is identical to the population of modern Azerbaijan. This justifies the use of the Azeri script. We see foreign spellings in line with the person's origin in many articles, e.g. William II of England was the king of England, yet we see his name in Norman French due to his origin. Gediminids ruled a country where Slavic was the official language, yet we see their names shown in Lithuanian. Parishan (talk) 17:05, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

See here. Your Iranica source is WP:OR, because it doesn't mention "Hossein Khan Sardar spoke Azeri". And analogy doesn't work in Wikipedia. I should remove both Azerbaijani and Armenian spellings from Erivan Khanate. -- Kouhi (talk) 17:22, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Considering that this person was an ethnic Turk of Qajar tribe, same as many Qajars who lived throughout the territory of the modern day Azerbaijan, I think that Azerbaijani spelling is appropriate. In what language do you think he communicated with his subjects, 80% of whom were Turkic Muslims? Grandmaster 20:27, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

It is already discussed and your comment doesn't add anything to the discussion. First fulfill these requirements, then add the Azerbaijani spelling in Arabic alphabet. -- Kouhi (talk) 22:42, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Is there a rule that does not allow the use of 1939 sources? Grandmaster 08:43, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, read my above comments. -- Kouhi (talk) 10:51, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

I'll just leave this here;

• "Iranians, in order to save the rest of eastern Armenia, heavily subsidized the region and appointed a capable governor, Hosein Qoli Khan, to administer it." -- A Concise History of the Armenian People: (from Ancient Times to the Present), George Bournoutian, Mazda Publishers (2002), page 215
• "Realizing the strategic value of the region after the loss of Karabagh, Ganjeh, and Georgia, Fath-'Ali Shah, 'Abbas Mirza (the commander of the Iranian forces), and Hosein Qoli Khan Qajar (the new governor of Yerevan) decided to work (...)" -- The Armenians of Iran: The Paradoxical Role of a Minority in a Dominant Culture ; Articles and Documents, Cosroe Chaquèri, Center for Middle Eastern Studies of Harvard University (1998), page 68.
• ḤOSAYNQOLI KHAN SARDĀR-E IRAVĀNI; important governor in the early Qajar period (b. ca. 1742, d. 1831). (...) Requiring a strong and loyal governor to command the fortress of Erevan against the Russian advances during the first Russo-Persian War (1804-13), the shah appointed Ḥosaynqoli as the commander-in-chief (sardār) of the Persian forces north of the Araxes (Aras) River (Freygang, p. 284) -- BOURNOUTIAN, GEORGE A. "ḤOSAYNQOLI KHAN SARDĀR-E IRAVĀNI". Encyclopædia Iranica.
• "The Khan Hosein Qoli Khan's efficient administration soon transformed the region. He modeled his bureaucracy on that of the central government, dividing power between tribal and settled groups". -- Eastern Armenia in the last decades of Persian rule, 1807-1828: a political and socioeconomic study of the khanate of Erevan on the eve of the Russian conquest, George Bournoutian, Undena Publications (1982), page 86.
• "The khans of Yerevan and Nakhjavan were both removed in 1805 by the shah on the grounds of disloyalty. (...) The new khan of Yerevan, Hosein Qoli, was one of the most able men in Fath' Ali's government and ruled Yerevan from 1807 until its conquest by the Russians in 1827." -- Russia and Iran, 1780-1828, Muriel Atkin, U of Minnesota Press (1980), page 89
• "The term khanate refers to an area that was governed by hereditary or appointed governors with the title of khan or beglerbegi who performed a military and/or administrative function for the central goverment. By the nineteenth century, there were nine such khanates in Transcaucasia (...) -- The Khanate of Erevan Under Qajar Rule: 1795-1828, George Bournoutian, Mazda Pub (1992), page xxiii
• "Erevan's more stable finances during the tenure of the last khan permitted its divan to grant only a small portion (12.6 percent) of its lands in this manner. During Hosein Qoli Khan's governorship, the system of tiyul functioned efficiently as an alternative to direct treasury cash payments for services to the state." -- The Khanate of Erevan Under Qajar Rule: 1795-1828, George Bournoutian, Mazda Pub (1992), page 129
• "In essence the Erevan administration, like its counterpart in Tehran, was organized into three branches (...)" -- Eastern Armenia in the last decades of Persian rule, 1807-1828: a political and socioeconomic study of the khanate of Erevan on the eve of the Russian conquest, George Bournoutian, Undena Publications (1982), page 86.

- LouisAragon (talk) 00:17, 24 September 2016 (UTC)