Talk:Henry Clinton (British Army officer, born 1730)

Year of birth

Both the ODNB, [1] and the Nottingham University webpage in external links give his year of birth as 1730, not 1738. The oDNB further states that his father obtained him a Lieutenant's commission in the New York militia in 1745 - even with his position as Governor, I think that a 7 year old is alittle young for that. Is there a source for the later date? David Underdown (talk) 15:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it was possible to buy a commission for such a young boy in those days - he would not actually serve, but he would gain years of seniority. DuncanHill (talk) 01:32, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

The original 1887 DNB article had his date of birth as "around 1738" - I think we are right in going with the current edition. DuncanHill (talk) 01:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

London Gazette search hits

Search results for Henry Clinton from the London Gazette. David Underdown (talk) 15:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Reviewer Comments

You've made some progress during the past eight days, but there's still a lot to do to make this article into a GA-Class one. Here are some of my concerns:

• The lead is still too short and doesn't summarise the article completely
• A picture is still without a suitable caption
• The Later Life section is still far too short and needs expansion
• Legacy section stil only has one citation and needs one for each quotation
• Still not enough citations in some sections, especially the latter part of Commander In Chief. See my previous comments for more details.
• References either all need ISBN numbers or none should have them - several still have them.
• References also need to be properly cited using the templates.

I think that's enough for now. There has been work done on the article, but I feel it may be better to fail the article and allow you to work on it, then re-nom it at a later time. Skinny87 (talk) 20:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

His descendants familiar to Americans!

Two of Henry Clinton descendants were actress Angela Baddeley and her sister Hermione Baddeley {Herminoe was married to a son of Edward Tennant, 1st Baron Glenconner and was a sister-in-law to Prime Minister H. H. Asquith} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.53.145.204 (talk) 12:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Member of Parliament

In "Later career" we find the phrase "he was re-elected to Parliament in 1790 for a riding in Launceston." - now, we do not have ridings in this sense in Britain (I believe it is a Canadian term). Launceston had two associated constituencies, Launceston (UK Parliament constituency) and Newport (Cornwall) (UK Parliament constituency) - I suspect the former is intended, but this does need to be checked. DuncanHill (talk) 01:21, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, it seems to have been Launceston (UK Parliament constituency), I will amend the article accordingly. DuncanHill (talk) 01:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Place of death

I have amended the place of death from Gibraltar to Portland Place, per the ODNB article. DuncanHill (talk) 01:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Place of birth

I suspect that Clinton was born in England - his father did not become Governor of Newfoundland until 1731 (the year after our subject's birth), and the ODNB article does not give a place of birth (the 1887 article gives Newfoundland, but this has him born about 1738). DuncanHill (talk) 01:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC) Bold text

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Henry Clinton (1738–1795)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

GA On Hold

I have now reviewed this article under the six Good article criteria, and have commented in detail on each criterion below:

1 Well written FAIL

1.1 Prose

I really think this would benefit from a good copyedit, as a lot of the writing is stilted or doesn't make grammatical sense. A few of the things I've come across:

• Clinton was born in Newfoundland, then a British colony over which his father, George Clinton, was governor - Of which, surely? FIXED

• In 1751, the young Henry went to England - why 'the young' in here? FIXED

• He was at first commissioned as a Captain - Again, no need for 'at first', it just sounds awkward. FIXED

• The lead is also far too short. It should summarise the article and be at least two paragraphs, not a few sentences.

1.2 Manual of Style I have several issues about the article for this section:

• The links to external websites in the citations should be formatted (use of {{citeweb}} template is recommended, though not required) to include access dates. Note this will not fail a GA Review, but is extremely helpful. UNABLE TO FIX (Did not add EL sources)

• All of the references are not cited properly using the correct citation templates, which is a major issue. (References are now properly cited)

• References using the same page numbers of the same book need to be combined together. (It is not apparent as to which page they are referring to)

• Regarding layout, the accepted format is for "See also" to come before the Notes and Refs sections (per WP:LAYOUT), and headings should normally be singular (per WP:MOSHEAD), so "Evaluations" should be "Evaluation" (although to be honest a more appropriate title could be found - 'Evaluation' sounds rather like WP:OR. Maybe 'Legacy' or 'Aftermath'?) FIXED

2 Factual accuracy FAIL

• Far too few citations for a GA article in my opinion. Some sections only have one or two per large paragraph, which I don't believe to be enough. (Only contentious material must be cited. Some of the cites are most likely for whole paragraphs)

• There is practically nothing on Clinton's later life, and having done several university courses on the American War of Revolution know that there was a great deal he did in his later career. That section also has no references and requires them. (Was unable to locate any further information on his post ARW career)

• His early career also has very few citations, and more are needed.

• Specific sentences requiring citation include the following ones below. Citations for quotes are mandatory at GA level.

The sentence "Late during the Seven Years' War, Clinton distinguished himself (1760–1762) as an aide-de-camp to Duke Ferdinand of Brunswick, and he was promoted to full Colonel in 1762." says he 'distinguished himself'. Unless this is backed up with a cite, it comes over as editor opinion.

Also, "...Clinton strongly advocated that British forces secure them against rebel occupation, but his warnings went unheeded by Howe." Who says Howe ignored Clinton, and where do they say it?

He was, wrote Major Wemyss who served under him, "an honourable and respectable officer of the German school; having served under Prince Ferdinand of Prussia and the Duke of Brunswick. Vain, open to flattery; and from a great aversion to all business not military, too often misled by aides de camp and favourites."

The Colonel Charles Stuart vitriolically called him "fool enough to command an army when he is incapable of commanding a troop of horse."

In 1782, Clinton was replaced as Commander-in-Chief by Sir Guy Carleton, and he returned to England. His replacement is linked to the fate of the southern army, which was surrounded and forced to surrender by George Washington and the Comte de Rochambeau, who commanded a combined French-American Army after the Siege of Yorktown. - Seems like WP:OR without at least one citation and a rewrite.

By late in 1779, having called in the troops from Newport to do so, Clinton had assembled a strong force for the next step in this strategy, an invasion of South Carolina. Clinton took personal command of this campaign, and the task force with 14,000 men sailed south from New York at the end of the year. By early 1780, Clinton had brought Charleston under siege. In May, working together with Admiral Mariot Arbuthnot, he forced the surrender of the city, with its garrison of 5,000, in a stunning and serious defeat for the rebel cause. - Needs at least one citation, if not more.

In June, an attack under Clinton's command was made on Fort Sullivan at Charleston, South Carolina. It was a humiliating failure, and his campaign in the Carolinas was called off. - Needs a citation here.

In May, working together with Admiral Mariot Arbuthnot, he forced the surrender of the city, with its garrison of 5,000, in a stunning and serious defeat for the rebel cause. - Citation needed, and also rewriting as it sounds WP:OR again.

• The whole section 'Early Life' needs a number of citations for accuracy.

3 Coverage Fail

• Again, needs more coverage of his later career, as well as his earlier career.

• The 'Evaluations' section only has two citations, yet a great deal is written in there and could do with more citations.

• Looking at the "Notes" and "References" sections, they don't seem to gel. There are many books listed under "References" that don't appear in the "Notes" (so were they used at all?), and one in the "Notes" that has no accompanying Reference. These definitely need some work. Also, all books for which ISBN's exist (post 1966ish) should give them. (ISBNs are listed as optional in WP:CITE)

4 Neutrality PASS

No evidence of POV in the article.

5 Stability PASS

Appears to be stable and thus passes.

6 Images PASS

Looks good - nice selection, well presented and captioned, with appropriate licenses. However:

• I'd recommend moving the portrait image under "American Revolutionary War" to the right of the page to vary placement and prevent bunching of text (and it needs a caption).

As a result of the above concerns I have placed the article on hold. This gives editors up to a week to address the issues raised (although if constructive work is underway, the hold period may be extended). I will regularly check back here to mark off those issues that have been satisfactorily resolved and to address any questions and comments you may have.

Feel free to contact me if you have any queries, especially since this is my first GA Review. Skinny87 (talk) 08:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Horatio Nelson

Nelson was on the way back to England from India in 1776. It's unlikely that he involved in the attack on Fort Sullivan, which happened in America. I've therefore removed the entry. --Clithering (talk) 16:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Title of this article

Who else thinks that the title of this article is atrocious? Might I suggest "Henry Clinton (British soldier)" or "Henry Clinton (British commander)" or some-such. TuckerResearch (talk) 15:23, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

He's not the only Henry Clinton to have been a British soldier. DuncanHill (talk) 15:51, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

They were not a very imaginative lot when it came to names see William Henry Clinton the other son and brother. -- PBS (talk) 22:57, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It is a bit unwieldly, but its probably the best way of disambiguating by linking him to the event by which he is best known. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 14:23, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I just stumbled upon this article and noticed this same problem. While I don't support removing the parenthetical, it is excessively long. Considering that, shouldn't we rename the many "Henry Clinton" articles with something shorter? I will make a new section below, since it has been six years. DaltonCastle (talk) 01:40, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Seven Years War

I have made adjustments to this element based on the Unit History and the Army Rolls of the period. The unit history shows that his unit, 2nd Battalion, 1st Foot Guards deployed in July 1760 which is why he wasn't in Germany before. There is no involvement of the 2nd Battalion, 1st Foot Guards (or any of that Regiment) at the Battles of Corpach (which was before they arrived) and Kloster Kampen. The same unit history is quite specific about where Clinton was wounded and it was not the battle of Freiberg. The campaign history of the Seven Years War suggests that Prince Ferdinand was no where near the Battle of Freiberg and it was fought by the Prussian Army. The date of his promotion is in the Army Rolls but he was still held to Establishment of 1st Foot Guards in 1763. The units of the Regiment returned via Holland in January 1763 but it is not stated whether Clinton was with them but it seems unlikely.

He purchased Colonel in Chief (which is not command) of the 12th Regiment of Foot (the Suffolk Regiment) on 28 November 1766 but this is not chronologically in sequence and beyond the Seven Years War. The unit was commanded by Lieutenant Colonel William Picton. The discussion regarding friendships is not my expertise and I have left it. I hope this helps clarify this part of his history. Family locator (talk) 03:07, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Potential title move

Its been several years since the discussion, but what are everyone's thoughts about moving this page, as well as the pages for the other "Henry Clintons" to shorter, less cumbersome titles? Thoughts? DaltonCastle (talk) 01:41, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Both the men who would otherwise have their biographies at Henry Clinton were British Army officers, so including "British Army officer" in their disambiguations seems pointless to me, since it all it does it result in a five-word disambiguation where the first four words are identical. It's also arguably a violation of WP:PARENDIS, which mandates that article title disambiguation should have "only as much additional detail as necessary". So I would advocate at least dropping that, in favour of Henry Clinton (born 1730) and Henry Clinton (born 1771), though personally I think Henry Clinton (1730–1795) and Henry Clinton (1771–1829) would be much better and is more encyclopaedic. But the titles I think would be best, and would be most useful to our readers, would be Henry Clinton (American Revolutionary War) and Henry Clinton (Napoleonic Wars), since I think there are far more people who, when typing "Henry Clinton" into the search box and seeing their list of options drop down, would be able to tell instantly which general they're looking for from that general's most notable war than from sets of dates that are rather close together. Binabik80 (talk) 20:00, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Trouble with that is that they were British and we call the contretemps in North America the American War of Independence, not the American Revolutionary War. DuncanHill (talk) 20:37, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I know what we call the American Revolutionary War, but luckily Wikipedia has a mechanism to overcome exactly this sort of problem. An argument could be made for either term in his disambiguation, since he was indeed British but is notable for an overwhelmingly American topic. I mean, I would be very surprised if British page views of both Sir Henry Clintons combined add up to the same number as American page views of this Sir Henry Clinton alone. (He is, for instance, currently a recurring character on an American network television programme, though other characters have repeatedly referred to him as "Sir Clinton".) I'd prefer "American Revolutionary War" as the main title, but that's because I've always preferred that as being much more natural English than "American War of Independence"; I wouldn't object to it going the other way. Or there's always the inferior option of the birth and death dates. Binabik80 (talk) 22:05, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

This article was at Henry Clinton (American War of Independence) for a very long time; it was moved, apparently without discussion, in November 2015. I further note that "born 1730" is IMHO a misstatement, because his exact year of birth is not currently known with precision (see article's first non-lede paragraph). Magic♪piano 22:34, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

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