Talk:Greyshirt

Origin

OK, I don't recall enough of the Greyshirt miniseries to fix up the origin, but the recent edit by Brown Shoes22 makes me cringe. I have set this page for "watch", and will clean it up once I do a reread of the issues. I know the writer is dyslexic (my code name having nothing to do with him, just a coincidence), but the thought process at work is virtually unreadable. Dyslexic agnostic 07:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I tried to clean things up. Fell free to take it further. --Emb021 20:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 20 July 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. It's been a month and the votes are split with equally good arguments. So we default to the status quo ante, which means moving the comics article back to Greyshirt and moving the dab page back to Greyshirt (disambiguation). Jenks24 (talk) 16:19, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

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• Greyshirt → Greyshirt (comics)
• Greyshirt (disambiguation) → Greyshirt

– The comic book character is obscure, the South African party unfortunately are not. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:31, 20 July 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. Cúchullain ^t/c 14:18, 30 July 2015 (UTC). Closed as "move" by User:Kwamikagami on 6 August 2015. Reopened per this discussion and this discussion by Dohn joe (talk) 00:33, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is a perfect WP:TWODABS situation. Two articles, two hatnotes. Dohn joe (talk) 14:25, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
  • You can move this article, and then redirect the current title to the South African topic. -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:45, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. A hat note works well in this situation, per Dohn Joe. Calidum T|C 22:59, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Expected, you two gentlemen have consistently opposed any disambiguation in any situation on numerous RMs, almost all of which eventually get moved when the Google Books evidence is considered. greyshirt -"grey shirt" But excluding uploaded copies of the comic, "greyshirt rally" and so on don't refer to the comic. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support there are more than two entries on the dab page -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support, there is no primary topic and the most common topic is not the one currently located at "Greyshirt". ONR (talk) 14:36, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support per nom. No primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:10, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
• Comment. The alternative should be to move this article, and move Greyshirts to Greyshirt. At least then we would be sending people to an article instead of a disambiguation page. Dohn joe (talk) 15:52, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

That's fine for users who don't pay for their connection. But what about those who do? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:50, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - the organisation is plural the character is singular so they're fine as they are. Hatnotes work in this case. Keresaspa (talk) 19:29, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

How is "a Greyshirt" or "Greyshirt rally" plural? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:52, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Administrator's comment

As an involved administrator I would like to explain where we are. Kwamikagami closed the discussion on August 6. He and I carried out what was reported as the result of this discussion. Dohn Joe has reopened the discussion. If the reopened discussion reaches a different conclusion, I will carry it out. For now I would prefer to leave things as they are (based on the August 6 closure of the discussion) until the discussion is closed again. Meanwhile I'll try to reconstruct what has happened, to facilitate discussion. Please correct me if I get anything wrong.

• From its creation in 2007 until July 16, the article about the comic character was called "Greyshirt".
• On July 16, In ictu oculi moved it to "Greyshirt (comics)"
• On July 16, Dohn joe moved it back to "Greyshirt".
• On July 20, In ictu oculi opened this discussion, proposing that the disambiguation page should be called "Greyshirt" and the comic character should be called "Greyshirt (comics)".
• On July 20, In ictu oculi created a disambiguation page called "Greyshirt (disambiguation)". By July 21, after input from several other editors, it looked like this: [1]. Note that it was formatted in a way that implies the comic book character is the primary use.
• On August 6, Kwamikagami closed the discussion as "moved". He moved "Greyshirt" to "Greyshirt (comics)" leaving a redirect. He then requested speedy deletion of the redirect page, so that the disambiguation page could be moved there to "Greyshirt".
• On August 6 I deleted "Greyshirt". I then moved "Greyshirt (disambiguation)" to "Greyshirt", leaving a redirect. I also reformatted the entries on the DAB page so that "Greyshirt (comics)" is no longer formatted as the primary use.

So here is how things stand now:

• "Greyshirt" is a disambiguation page with four entries.
• "Greyshirt (comics)" is about the comic character.
• "Greyshirts" is about the South African political movement.
• The DAB page also refers to the Greyshirts in the novel "The President Vanishes".
• The DAB page also refers the use of the term in college athletics. --MelanieN (talk) 01:33, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Continuation of the discussion

Further discussion should be placed in this section. "Support" means that you believe "Greyshirt" should be a disambiguation page and the article about the comic book character should be called "Greyshirt (comics)". "Oppose" means that you believe the titles should remain as they were, namely, the article about the comic book character should be called "Greyshirt" and the DAB page should be called "Greyshirt (disambiguation)". There is no need to repeat what you said above; this section is for additional comments or !votes. --MelanieN (talk) 01:33, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support again, particularly now Grayshirt has been added to the dab (thanks to whoever made that connection). I my view objection by Dohn Joe to disambiguation is timewasting, see past history at Talk:Parachutes (album) Talk:Bookends (album) etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:10, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support as before. Obviously. Nothing has changed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:15, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support as before. ONR (talk) 13:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Comment / question. Gray redirects to Grey – it's a redirect from an alternative spelling. See American and British English spelling differences § Miscellaneous spelling differences. Grey is a minor variant in American English. So, if grayshirt in college sports is not primary topic for greyshirt as well, shouldn't that be disambiguated grayshirt (college sports), as is redshirt (college sports), and grayshirt redirected to greyshirt? Wbm1058 (talk) 14:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Interesting question. Two questions actually - the spelling of gray/grey and the redirect. It made sense to me to use the American spelling "grayshirt" for the college sports item at the DAB page, because terms like "redshirt" and "grayshirt" are pretty much restricted to American college sports. I do find that both "grayshirt / gray shirt" and "greyshirt / grey shirt" have some usage, [2] but Wikipedia's definition at the article Redshirt (college sports) uses "gray". As for the redirect, you are right that Grayshirt should probably redirect to the Greyshirt dab page, rather than to "Redshirt (college sports)" as it currently does. A new, disambiguated redirect (or possibly two redirects under both spellings?) could be made to point the college sports usage to the Redshirt article. --MelanieN (talk) 15:13, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I went ahead and fixed the redirect issue: Grayshirt is now a redirect to the Greyshirt DAB page, and Grayshirt (college sports) redirects to the appropriate section at the Redshirt (college sports) article. I also clarified, at the DAB page, that it incorporates both spellings. --MelanieN (talk) 15:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

User:MelanieN thanks, good call. In my view the dab page should perhaps also mention the fictional American Grey shirt fascist group in The President Vanishes (1934) which is contemporary but unrelated with the origins of the South African fascists. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:24, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

It's already there - as the fourth item on the DAB page. --MelanieN (talk) 21:21, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. My objection from above stands. There is no need to carry out this move per WP:SMALLDETAILS and WP:TWODABS. Calidum T|C 21:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support having a disambiguaiton page at the base location; as before. If there was a proper objection, it should have gone through WP:MRV, this should not have been reopened without going through MRV. Claims that the singular form for the South African topic can be ignored is wrong, since a single member uses the singular and not the plural. This character is clearly not the primary topic, since it is quite hard to find results for it in a general internet search using only the base name as the sole search term. -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 04:27, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

For the record, Dohn Joe discussed the closing at the closer's talk page, and the closer gave him permission to reopen the discussion. That is a perfectly acceptable alternative to MRV. --MelanieN (talk) 21:27, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. Sorry for the confusion, all. I went to the closer to ask for their rationale, and then got their ok to reopen the discussion. I was hoping it could be as simple as that. It was a 4-3 !vote where I didn't see clear consensus, and I was hoping to get some more input or at least more justification for the close. Unfortunately, it's still a 4-3 !vote, with no new input. Just wanted to let you all know where this came from. (P.S. - not readding my !vote because Melanie expressly asked us not to....) Dohn joe (talk) 17:16, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Hey, everybody else did! 0;-D It doesn't matter; the closer can count, and the initial comments are valid whether people reaffirmed them or not. Although as you say this is not a !vote, so if anyone has any NEW points to make, let's hear them. --MelanieN (talk) 19:24, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is really a WP:TWODABS situation, and the two titles have enough differences in WP:SMALLDETAILS to be distinct enough already. Hatnotes take care of the rest.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:36, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.