Talk:Garda Emergency Response Unit

Untitled

This article has some unreferenced statements. Each tagged statement that is not backed up is discussed below:

"ERU chase suspects to 240 km/h"

Where and when were armed Gardaí pursuing suspects at, allegedly, what amounts to 150 MPH? Rubensni 11:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Possible confirmation: Irish Examiner 2006 11 07. Will add to replace fact tag. Guliolopez (talk) 14:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Good enough for me. I have changed the sentence to reflect that the arrest took place in Croom. This makes more sense as there is a dual carrigeway from Limerick to Croom. The original, unsubstantiated claim: "...involved an ERU team chasing armed suspects in Limerick...[in] a chase which reached speeds of 240km/h" read as if the Gardaí were doing over four times the speed limit around Limerick city! Rubensni 15:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

It's been removed, it's farcical having information about a car chase which resulted in no significant incident when the ERU have shot dead 9 people over the last 25 years. IrishSpook (talk) 04:22, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Training

"Members of the ERU receive training with police forces in other countries, including the United States (including the FBI), Germany and the United Kingdom"

Evidence exists for individual members being trained abroad

"Members of the Garda Emergency Response Unit have travelled to the Los Angeles sheriff's office for training in the use of the three [less lethal] weapons, and are currently training their colleagues in the unit on how to use the devices". Rubensni 16:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Controversy section

"They were strongly condemned in the Barr Tribunal investigating John's death."

No member of the Gardaí was prosecuted for Mr Carthy's murder and the final report of Justice Barr stated the following: "I am satisfied that responsibility for his [Carthy's] death rests primarily with the scene commanders and to a lesser extent with the ERU tactical commander for reasons stated elsewhere in this chapter." It was Garda management that were criticised primarily for their failings on that day and not the ERU as a unit, and for this reason I would propose removing the sentence above from the article.

Rubensni 14:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

This probably does need a reword to reflect that the action involving the ERU was criticised, rather than the unit itself. However, it should be noted that individual members of the unit - including the negotiator who was one of two ERU members who shot him - WERE charged with mistakes by the Barr Tribunal. Guliolopez (talk) 14:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I realise that the ERU negotiator and the ERU member who took the fatal shot were criticised, however as this is an article about the ERU and not Abbeylara I would maintain that it would be best to deal with that on the Abbeylara/Barr Tribunal page. Additionally, the fact that the sencence above refers to John Carthy in the first person is primary school prose. I would also propose strking the line "...and individual ERU members were criticised in the tribunal's report on the incident" for the same reasons. Rubensni 18:58, 05 December 2007 (UTC)

"In more recent times they have received praise for their reaction to similar incidents and their use of less lethal weapons."

Who has praised the ERU? Rubensni 11:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Dubious. When this was added it seemed to be done so to temper the Abbeylara notes. Rather than based on any specific ref.Guliolopez (talk) 14:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

Equipment and Weapons

I would propose deleting both of these sections unless references for each piece of equipment is provided. Rubensni 11:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Not too sure about deleting this. I understand the comment about refs, but the ERU don't quite have a "homepage" and there does appear to be anecdotal evidence to support the ERU using some of this equipment. Not least given that that's what the ERU were carrying at Abbeylara. Guliolopez (talk) 14:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

If, as you say they were carrying these weapons at Abbeylara, then you have evidence to show this? Facts require verification; opinions don't. Additionally, the line "The ERU use similar equipment to that of other SWAT units around the world" who said the ERU was a SWAT unit? I'm sure the Gardai would reject this.Rubensni 11:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

(deindent). Firstly, any chance you can temper your tone a little? And avoid shouting? I didn't write the items that you appear to have issue with. I am the first person to request sources when something seems "opinionated", so please don't direct your pointed requests for references at me. (To my knowledge most of the weapons detail was written by a Defence Forces rep from the ARW who trains with the ERU). Cheers.

Secondly. On the comment that the ERU would not (strictly) label itself a SWAT unit. This is probably true. The Gardaí describe the ERU as a "specialist armed intervention unit". However, there is no universal and all-encompassing term for police tactical teams which provide this type of support. And, "specialist armed intervention unit" would seem pretty close to the term SWAT? Wouldn't you think? To the extent that the reader will understand the co-relation? "SWAT" is pretty much universally understood, and elements of the justice dept and of the media relate the ERU with the SWAT concept. Probably so that people recognise what is being discussed. There is no reason for not doing the same here. (A lot of articles on similar tactical police units draw the same co-relation).

Finally, with regard to the Abbeylara weapons ref. There are actually quite a few. Including the Barr Tribunal reports themselves. But here's a simple one for the Uzis, HKs, and Sigs: http://www.barrtribunal.ie/OpenStatement.html: "D/Garda McCabe was in possession of an Uzi sub-machine gun, D/Garda Sisk was in possession of a Heckler & Koch 33 assault rifle and D/Sergeant Michael Jackson was in possession of a Sig Sauer pistol." Beyond this, on the two pics on the article page, the ERU members are carrying Uzis and Sigs respectively. Cheers. Guliolopez 12:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I was not, nor did I intend to - as you say - shout. I put direct quotes from the main text in quotation marks and emphasis to mark them as such. I did not intend to offend you and apologise if my use of html were construed in such a way. Furthermore, I appreciate your work in furtherance of the verification of this article. My direct response above was in relation to the fact that there was originally no references given for any of the weapons. I stand by my original proposal to remove any claims that don't have references as, if unreferenced claims are allowed to remain it opens the door for consensus reality. In relation to your third point, I wish to see the list of weapons to remain intact. I was the first to add references to the weapons list, both from the IT and from the Barr tribunal report. Any other references I see to back this up I will reference.

On your second point, I would propose defining the ERU as:

(a) a Paramilitary Police unit, or

(b) ...a unit similar to a US SWAT team, or

(c) the term you pointed out as the official term used by the Gardaí specialist armed intervention unit.

The issue I pointed out remains; the article in its current form states categorcally that the ERU is a SWAT team - which is just plain wrong. Once again let's stick to the facts and cut through the hype - we can leave that to the media. Rubensni 18:48, 05 December 2007 (UTC)

OK. Thanks for the response. With regard to the "description". In the intro, I think it should be OK to make a change from "The ERU is a specialist unit" to "The ERU is a specialist armed intervention unit". In the weapons section, I think it should be OK to make a change from "The ERU use similar equipment to that of other SWAT units" to "The ERU use similar equipment to comparable tactical police units, such as a US SWAT team or Australian Police Tactical Group". I would avoid any terms like "Paramilitary" or similar, as the ERU is *not* based on military structures. Guliolopez (talk) 14:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Perfect for me, thanks. I'll make the changes now. Rubensni 17:07, 06 December 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

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