Talk:Formal act of defection from the Catholic Church

origins?

as the article states the actus formalis is alluded in the canon law. It would be good to have some information about the actual origins of the act and if it was ever discussed by itself in canon law. A thing cannot be alluded to without itself existing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.94.229.105 (talk) 17:17, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

WP:UE?

Has this been tested according to Google Scholar/Books to establish that English is not "commonly used"? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:29, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Formal act of defection from the Catholic Church Mike Cline (talk) 01:55, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

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Actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica → formal act of defection – the notability of this term is still a bit suspect in English, but at least better evidenced in Google Books (10 hits) than Latin (zero hits). relisted --Mike Cline (talk) 23:09, 18 December 2011 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk) 13:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose at least in this form: the article is not about "formal act of defection" in general but about a specific formal act of defection, i.e. from the Catholic Church. Curiously, for me Google Books gives for "actus formalis defectionis", the Latin phrase corresponding to "formal act of defection", 330 hits, far more than 10, or than zero. Even for the whole phrase "actus formalis defectionis ab ecclesia catholica", corresponding to "formal act of defection from the Catholic Church" (which is what the article is about), Google Books gives for me 167 results. Esoglou (talk) 15:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Try searching with English only, excluding German texts. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:50, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I won't counter with a Smart-Alecky "Try searching with Latin only, excluding German texts" for "formal act of defection from the Catholic Church", which wouldn't really be logical. I have done as you suggested, searching for the full specific phrase, not for the abbreviated phrase corresponding only to the generic and therefore unsuitable as a title for this article "formal act of defection", and I still got this (admittedly in a reference to a German work, but in an English-language publication) and this. I tried Google Books, with no limitations of language or of any other kind, for the full phrase in English, "formal act of defection from the Catholic Church", and only got this. Esoglou (talk) 16:57, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Esoglou

There's no need for personal attacks.

When I suggested "Try searching with English only, excluding German texts" it was not meant to be smart alecky, it was a suggestion to try searching with English only, excluding German texts.

You said above you got Curiously, for me Google Books gives for "actus formalis defectionis", the Latin phrase corresponding to "formal act of defection", 330 hits, far more than 10, or than zero. Yes, you did, I also get 330 when English language isn't selected. I simply pointed out that you need to exclude results in German texts, and then the current Latin title gets zero results. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:09, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you took "Smart-Alecky" as a reference to you. It was a reference to myself. It was Smart-Alecky of me to think of it, but I hope you noted that I recognized explicitly that this thought of mine was not logical. I hope also that you have read my reply to the question you put on my Talk page. Esoglou (talk) 17:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I hope too that you notice what I stated above: that when I tried for "the current Latin title" (the full title), for English language alone, I got something more than zero results. Esoglou (talk) 17:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay, no worries. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:38, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

• Rename but to Formal act of defection from the Catholic Church -- English WP prefers English titles. Peterkingiron (talk) 19:14, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• On the new proposal by Peterkingiron: Support Esoglou (talk) 20:40, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Formal defection is something that has been provided for in Cannon Law all along. AFDAEC was a specific procedure that was briefly available in 2006-2009. So although formal defection is still provided for in theory, there is no longer any procedure that would allow a Catholic to do this. If you just translate the Latin, it is not obvious that it refers to a specific bureaucratic procedure. So a proper translation can come only from an official source. Kauffner (talk) 09:30, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the problem is with article scope? formal defection and formal act of defection being the wider subject with this as a paragraph? There is a source for the full English in the New commentary on the Code of Canon Law ed. John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, Thomas Joseph Green - 2000 "Thus, the formal act of defection from the Catholic Church is a juridic act which can be proven in the external forum and whose intended effect is to separate oneself from the Church" (this is a WP:RS which should be in the article in fact, so will add it). In ictu oculi (talk) 13:28, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The passage you are quoting is about formal defection in general, not AFDAEC. However, there is a passage in Beal that does deal with this issue directly: "The concept of 'defection from the Catholic Church by a formal act' is an innovation of the 1983 code, and its exact meaning has yet to be determined." (p. 1335) Beal was published in 2002, and the AFDAEC regulations were published in 2006. Kauffner (talk) 17:15, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

• Amend own proposal -> Rename but to Formal act of defection from the Catholic Church as per Peterkingiron's suggestion and Esoglou's seconding. -- Added the source from American Canon Law Society above, probably shouldn't have left the redlinks in, as above, but at least transparent as to what else is and isn't there while we're having this discussion.In ictu oculi (talk) 13:38, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

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(Relisted) -- The proposed target is now Formal act of defection from the Catholic Church - PLease comment on this proposal. Peterkingiron (talk) 12:00, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support -- This is a literal translation of the Latin. As this is the English WP, we should have English article titles. Peterkingiron (talk) 12:00, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support The proposed title in English is identical with the present title in Latin. Both concern the same reality, which was introduced in 1983, specified/determined in 2006 and abolished in 2009. Contrary to what Kaffner said above, the 2002 Beal book was commenting on that precise reality and rightly stated that the exact meaning of what was mentioned in the 1983 Code had yet (in 2002) to be determined. Its exact meaning was determined four years later, in 2006. Esoglou (talk) 15:02, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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