Talk:Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Sukhumi

POV, Factual accuracy

This article needs a lot of work. As of now, its sole purpose seems to be to vilify the Abkhazians. It's full of highly dubious claims (ritualistic cannibalism, huh?!?), which are not supported by any sources whatsoever (what a surprise). Hence the plethora of the {{Fact}} tags. There was at least one instance of the article providing definitely false information: the Abkhazia's case is not under the ICC's investigation. Óðinn 06:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the article intends to vilify someone. A massacre is a massacre; it either happened or not. All the horrors of the slaughter of unarmed men, women and children are heavily reported by eyewitnesses and are submitted for investigation to the ICC. I'm not sure, however, if the investigation is underway right now. If still in doubt, you can check a number of reports by international human right organizations.--Kober 07:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The article is full of grisly and baseless accusations. Ritual cannibalism (my personal favourite), children being killed in front of their parents, disembowlement, etc. And of course, that wouldn't be a real Georgian history-related article if the evil Russian "Take no prisoners" perpetrators weren't mentioned. Classic! So, Somebody should either provide sources for all the {{Fact}} tags, or remove these dubious claims altogether. Óðinn 16:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this is only an incomplete list of atrocities committed in Abkhazia. I'm pretty sure the author of the article will provide more than enough sources for these claims. --Kober 16:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Atrocities were commited by both sides. And yes, I'm looking forward to seeing some sources Óðinn 16:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there were many human right violations on both sides, but those committed by the Georgians cannot be compared to the methods practiced by the rebels and the Noth Caucasian mercenaries. FYI, more than half of Georgian casualties have been reported after 1994, i.e., when a ceasefire accord was signed. Abkhaz reprisal raids against the Georgian-inhabited villages continue to this day. I once met a Russian-speaking "veteran" of the war against Georgia on one of the forums, who was still proud of himself for playing football with severed heads of Georgians in Abkhazia.--Kober 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, really? How about the destruction of the Armenian village of Labra by the Mkhedrioni? And many similar atrocities? The fact that you've met some ugly people does not make all the Abkhazians who were fighting a bunch of cannibalistic rapists Óðinn 17:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Labra was destroyed during the Abkhaz second failed attack on Sukhumi in 1993; and not only the Mkhedrioni soldiers contributed to that. There were hundreds of Georgian "Labras". Have you ever heard of the local Armenian batallion "Bagramyan" who ruthlessly killed even ethnic Abkhaz who dared to shelter their Georgian neighbors? --Kober 17:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The citations will be available. As for cannibalism, it was taken from the Andersen report on Abkhazia (see bellow in Bibliography). Abkhaz drinking Georgian blood is considered as cannibalistic. "evil Russian "Take no prisoners" perpetrators weren't mentioned. Classic!" oh so that’s why you are exploding? You have typical biased pro-Russian POV. Where are your sources? Where are your actual support for contradiction of the article? If this article goes not agree with your Russian views, it does not mean it is inaccurate. You did not demonstrate any sources (primary and secondary), documents, etc to support your dashing and accusations. The sources are available in bibliography section. Refrain from Russian POV pushing and maintain strictly NPOV rule. Kober, i don’t think we should feed the trolls. Ldingley 17:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

"Ldingey & Kober, Do not feed the troll"

Óðinn,you reveal a POV yourself by claiming that ICC is not investigating the ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia. Just a year ago they started to look into the allegations. The sources are vast and they are reliable. Please look into the bibliography. The citations will be directed to the sources. Before labelling or claiming anything, consult the sources and review them carefully. Also as i have noticed from other Georgian related articles, you tend to have POV on many topics. Please refrain yourself from POV pushing and maintain NPOV which is one of the most essential pillars of Wikipedia . Ldingley 14:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Ldingley, that's not a claim, but a fact [1]

"...However a formal investigation has not yet been opened" It might behoove you to consult the sources before you suggest others do that. Óðinn 16:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

"International Criminal Court in The Hague, is investigating claims which alleges Abkhazian side of committing ethnic-cleansing and genocide against Georgians during the 1992-93 civil war." United Nations Press Release, DTL0955, June 29, 2004

International Criminal Court will significantly contribute to the rule of law, which is the basis for Georgia's democratic development and a necessary prerequisite for its integration into the world community. The ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia and the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of citizens from their homes clearly indicate the urgent need of a mechanism that would be capable not only of prosecuting the perpetrators, but would also serve as a strong deterrent against future conflagrations. War crimes are becoming even more elaborate and sophisticated. Suffering of the civilian population, the massacre of children, the rape of women and the torture of prisoners still remain invariable companions of modern warfare. Such crimes get even more severe and brutal when it comes to non-international armed conflict, as has been witnessed in various countries, including Georgia, where the most serious crimes are still being perpetrated by those who are unhampered either by morality or by law. Piter Chkeidze, from submitted doccument for Criminal Court in The Hague, 2001

"..As a result of the conflict in Abkhazia, Georgia, about three hundred thousand people, predominantly Georgians, as well as representatives of other nationalities - were forcefully driven from their homes, and today, this area is run by the benefactors of internationally recognized ethnic cleansing as recognized by the OSCE Summit Declarations in Budapest (1994), Lisbon (1996) and Istanbul (1999)." United Nations Security Council meeting New York, July 11, 2006

For a far more balanced account, read: http://visitabkhazia.com/en/history.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.147.68.236 (talk) 22:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for citations, Luis. Great work!--Kober 14:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

" EU is deeply concerned about the great number of refugees from Abkhazia living in Georgia, and deeply concerned about the continuing process of ethnic cleansing of Georgians in the Abkhaz region," Resolution issued by the European Parliament. 10 December 2001.

"United Nations welcomes the decision of the Secretary-General to send a fact-finding mission to Georgia in this regard, in particular to investigate reports of ethnic cleansing" Resolution 993 adopted by the UN Security Council. 30 January 1997

" UN expressed their deep concern over “ethnic cleansing”, the massive expulsion of people, predominantly Georgian, from their living areas and the deaths of large numbers of innocent civilians." Protocol the 7-th meeting of Experts’ Group of authorized delegations of the sides within the negotiation process on full-scale settlement of Georgian-Abkhaz conflict. 4 October 2004.

"The Ministry of Foreign Affairs will present to the UN materials on crimes against humanity, genocide, ethnic cleansing and military crimes committed by separatists and address a request to the UN to establish an International Tribunal." Resolution 1077 UN Security Council.

"FROM THE LISBON SUMMIT DECLARATION OF THE OSCE:

20. We reaffirm our utmost support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia within its internationally recognized borders. We condemn the ‘ethnic cleansing’ resulting in mass destruction and forcible expulsion of predominantly Georgian population in Abkhazia. 2-3 December 1996

"..All this is happening in Gali, at the background of tragic events of February 1994, March 1995 and May 1998, which took the lives of hundreds of innocent people; the atrocities committed by the separatists have been assessed by OSCE and UN as ethnic cleansing targeted at changing the demographic situation in the region. John Mc'Cormick, Protocol of the Gali Meeting, 11 May 2001.

sources

Kober, please help me to insert the citations and they are from the following:

• Dmitry Kholodov, Moscow journalist covering the Conflict, 1992

• Chervonnaia, Svetlana Mikhailovna. Conflict in the Caucasus: Georgia, Abkhazia, and the Russian Shadow. Gothic Image Publications, 1994.

• Human Rights Watch. "Georgia/Abkhazia: Violations of the Laws of War and Russia's Role in the Conflict." Published on hrw.org, March 1995.

• Marshania L. Tragedy of Abkhazia Moscow, 1996

• White Book of Abkhazia. 1992-1993 Documents, Materials, Evidences. Moscow, 1993.

From Human Rights Watch and U.S. State Department, 1993-94.

VIOLATIONS OF THE LAWS OF WAR IN THE FALL OF SUKHUMI

The fall of Sukhumi in September 1993 offered Abkhaz fighters an unprecedented chance at revenge for what Georgian fighters had done the year before, and a wave of atrocities followed. According to The Independent,

Truck-loads of booty have been carted out by soldiers, murders of civilians have been common and houses have been marked according to the ethnic affiliation of their inhabitants ... Tales of looting, murder, rape and arson have also been recounted by exhausted Georgians on the two main escape routes [from Sukhumi].154

The 1994 U.S. State Department Country Reports also describes scenes of massive human rights abuse:

The [Abkhaz] separatist forces committed widespread atrocities against the Georgian civilian population, killing many women, children, and elderly, capturing some as hostages and torturing others ... they also killed large numbers of Georgian civilians who remained behind in Abkhaz-seized territory...

The separatists launched a reign of terror against the majority Georgian population, although other nationalities also suffered. Chechens and other north Caucasians from the Russian Federation reportedly joined local Abkhaz troops in the commission of atrocities... Those fleeing Abkhazia made highly credible claims of atrocities, including the killing of civilians without regard for age or sex. Corpses recovered from Abkhaz-held territory showed signs of extensive torture.155

The evidence available to Human Rights Watch supports the U.S. State Department's findings.

The Abkhaz attacks triggered a mass flight of Georgian civilians that international relief organizations "roughly estimated at 230,000 to 250,000 people."156 Some 50,000 of those fleeing came from Sukhumi. Those who fled along the main highway leading southeast through Ochamchira and Mingrelia to Tbilisi had to contend with continuing fighting not only between Georgian and Abkhaz forces, but fighting between pro-Shevardnadze and pro-Gamsakhurdia forces as well. A second road out of Sukhumi led across the mountains behind Sukhumi, the 10,000 foot passes of the Caucasus, through the Kodori valley to the peaks of Svanetia and the Russian border beyond. This route % described by one journalist as a "caravan of trauma"157 % spelled tragedy for thousands. The narrow mountain tracks turned to mud under the immense volume of traffic and the worsening autumn weather. Journalists described scenes of "refugees who had been stranded for weeks, lashed by rain and snow, sleeping fifty to a house or camping out in rickety Soviet-eracars."158 A blizzard in early October claimed many; their bodies remained by the sides of trails in the mountain passes. Those who managed to reach Tbilisi found that the city had little to offer. By October 8, it was reported, Tbilisi itself had "only a week's supply of grain."159

Human Rights Watch finds Abkhaz forces responsible for the foreseeable wave of revenge, human rights abuse, and war crimes that was unleashed on the Georgian population in Sukhumi and other parts of Abkhazia. In Human Rights Watch's judgment, these practices were indeed encouraged in order to drive the Georgian population from its homes. The Abkhaz leadership is responsible in precisely the same way that Human Rights Watch holds the Georgian government responsible for human rights abuse and war crimes unleashed against the Abkhaz civilian population when Georgian forces entered Sukhumi and other parts of Abkhaz territory a year earlier.

155= U.S. State Department, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1993, February 1994, pp. 877, 881.

159= RFE/RL Daily Report, October 21, 1993.

about the last edits

Link to the relevant discussion. Alæxis_¿question? 17:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Russian POV

Can anyone explain me, which normal human beeing would ever come to the mind to denie a massacer where thousands of people were killed or driven out of Abkhazia ? Who is responsible for the disgusting Russian translation ?! TheMightyGeneral (talk) 20:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

You'll have to be more precise - what are you talking about? sephia karta | dimmi 00:49, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Were thousands killed? There are no casualty counts or estimates anywere —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.211.103 (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

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User_talk:Mkativerata#DAI_Copyright_infringement_deletions:_Sukhumi_massacre Alæxis_¿question? 17:28, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

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Number of casulties

I know it is a sensitive subject but I would expect at least an estimation on how many people killed. It would add some practical value to the article. We are editing an encyclopedia, after all. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.212.29.190 (talk) 19:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. This is unique for an article on a massacre in not even hinting at the number killed. Is this a deliberate decision or are there really no estimates? Surely there must be official and Red Cross estimates?Royalcourtier (talk) 08:08, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

So far there seems to be no "official" estimate of the casualties in any international documents I have seen. Not even in the Red Cross or HRW. If we have to estimate very roughly, considering that Zhiuli Shartava and other members of the Self-Defense Council were mercilessly tortured and killed (so at least several dozen public servants alone) and also while some of the civillians managed to flee the city before the Abkhazo-North Caucasian onslaught, many (at least tens of thousands) were still left in the city and were also killed, I guess, case can be made for a very, very rough estimate for "several thousand murdered". Let's keep in mind that up to 15 000-20 000 Georgian civillians were killed in the war and a lion's share of these deaths were in Sokhumi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marovaso (talk • contribs) 11:34, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Sources for the number of casualties

The following references were added in support of the statement "Civilian death toll ranging from several thousand to almost 30000": [2][3][4]. Actually all three of them mention the number 30,000 as an upper estimate of the number of casualties during the entire conflict:

“ According to the Red Cross, the conflict claimed between 10,000 and 15,000 lives and left over 8000 wounded.[3] Other sources, emphasizing ethnic cleansing, cite the figure for deaths as between 25,000 and 30,000.[4] ”

“ In the chaotic aftermath of defeat almost all ethnic Georgian population fled the region by sea or over the mountains escaping a large-scale ethnic cleansing initiated by the victors. Many thousands died — it is estimated that between 10,000-30,000 ethnic Georgians and 3,000 ethnic Abkhaz may have perished ”

“ July 1993: Abkhaz forces break through Georgian lines and retake Sukhumi. Quickly pushing south, the Abkhaz militia reoccupies all of Abkhazia by the end of September 1993; with assistance, including air support, from the Russian military, which was officially neutral in the conflict. 10,000 - 30,000 ethnic Georgians are killed. ”

Clearly there were victims not only in Sukhumi, so these sources do not confirm the stated number of casualties. Among these three sources only the first one provides a reference for the given figures: [5], now located at [6]. Their source, in turn, is "Georgian government’s Committee on Human Rights and Interethnic Relations. Human Rights Watch interview with Committee Chairman Aleksandre Kavsadze, Tbilisi, 2 January 1995", cited from Georgia Abkhazia: Violations of the Laws of War and Russia’s Role in the Conflict, Human Rights Watch Arms Project, March 1995, Vol. 7, No. 7 p. 5. There's no separate estimate of casualties of Sukhumi massacre in the HRW report, they only write that "Some 50,000 of those fleeing came from Sukhumi".

Therefore I suggest to remove casualty numbers until reliable sources are found and write only that about the 50,000 fled Sukhumi in the aftermath of these events. Alæxis_¿question? 19:58, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I see where you are coming from, but neither the military casualties ( around 2,500 killed ) nor the civilian casualties caused by massacres in other areas such as Ochamchire etc would amount to as many dead "anywhere esle but Sukhumi", especialy due to lack of any greater population in said areas, thus why it is not really odd that so many ( or rather the majority ) dead would appear in and around a town. TheMightyGeneral (talk) 21:04, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that makes sense, but on the other hand it's still technically WP:OR. Let's leave it for now (I rewrote it a bit). If we don't find sources, I'd suggest to move this to the article text since the infobox is supposed to contain directly relevant and well sourced info.Alæxis_¿question? 17:24, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm linking Talk:War_in_Abkhazia_(1992–1993)#Losses discussion. It appears that 25-30 thousand dead is the upper limit of the number of victims of the whole conflict for both sides. Alaexis_¿question? 14:29, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

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Requested move 3 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Sukhumi. No objections raised to the principle of moving from the old title. If someone wants to change the scope of this article then they can see if that works and maybe propose a move to "Seige of..." later, but that isn't determined for certain by this RM so just sticking to what's there for now.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:42, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

---

Sukhumi massacre → Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Sukhumi OR 1993 Fall of Sukhumi –

• No sources used in the article use the word 'massacre'
• Using Google books search I found only one book using this term (Oil, Islam, and Conflict: Central Asia since 1945; I'm not counting "books" based on the Wikipedia which unfortunately also show up), and it only briefly discusses it.
• Ethnic cleansing better describes the situation with nearly all ethnic Georgians fleeing/being expelled from Sukhumi
• The is no single term that is consistently used by reliable sources when describing the events that followed the fall of Sukhumi in 1993. The term 'ethnic cleansing' is frequently applied to describe the events in Abkhazia in general (see Internal displacement and the conflict in Abkhazia by Erin Mooney and multiple sources in Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia).

To summarise, there is no accepted name, and per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(events)#Conventions we should use one of the descriptive names I suggested. Alaexis_¿question? 23:31, 3 February 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Jack Frost (talk) 10:56, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

"Fall of Sukhumi" would seem an expansion in scope from the current article, although I note that there is no wider article for the city fall itself. "Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Sukhumi" seems to be a more focused scope. If the scope is widened, "Siege of Sukhumi" may be a better title. CMD (talk) 01:50, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. If we do widen the scope to the Siege of Sukhumi, we could incorporate the information from War in Abkhazia (1992–1993)#Bombing and siege of Sukhumi. Alaexis_¿question? 15:13, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NPOV tag

HCPUNXKID, can you clarify why you added the NPOV tag?

NPOV tag again

Alaexis, can you clarify why you added the NPOV tag? The tag was added without explanation. What are you disputing? What specifically does not appear neutral? Thanks. ParticipantObserver (talk) 17:25, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Did I? If yes it was probably long ago and I don't remember why. Alaexis_¿question? 20:17, 19 April 2022 (UTC)