Talk:Elis

Untitled

I think this article should either be renamed "Ileia" (that's the official transliteration, Ilia is the transliteration proposed by the US Board of Geographic Names), or merged with Elis (it is the same, isn't it?). Reactions at Talk:Prefectures of Greece please. Markussep 13:26, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I tagged this article for clean-up. It has poor English, many repetitions, confusing text, and many very unencyclopedic facts (what supermarket chains do not have stores in this region, minor forest fires and earthquakes, there are no ski resorts etc. etc.). And I wouldn't know what lines like "Two thermal springs offers beautiful blue-colored sea with the best beaches around." and "Straws and bamboo sticks are founded along the roads in the plains of the area." mean. Markussep 20:26, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

List of settlements in the Ilia prefecture, Kalo Nero?

I noticed that the list of settlements contains Kalo Nero that linked to the article about Kalo Nero, Avlona, Messenia. I changed the link to Kalo Nero (Ilia) (that article does not exist) but now I started wondering whether there's at all such a place in the Prefecture of Ilia! At least I couldn't find any in http://www.statistics.gr/gr_tables/S1101_SAP_1_TB_DC_01_03_Y.pdf , maybe it indeed was incorrectly meaning Kalo Nero, Avlona, Messenia and should be removed? Enlighten me, if you can! Sivullinen (talk) 16:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I have now deleted the Kalo Nero entry in List_of_settlements_in_the_Ilia_prefecture for reasons stated above, backed by some 'off-line' discussion, and because it does not exist in the corresponding list of Greek Wikipedia. If you think differently, please give some justification (at least the municipality where it is located!). --Sivullinen (talk) 19:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

I've started cleaning up this article, removing a lot of vague and unencyclopedic material and repetitions. Some of the parts I removed were quite unclear to me:

• it said that Elis/Ilia was formerly a department. What kind of administrative unit was that (in Greek)?
• at one point, it said that Ilia has 120 km of sandy beaches, at another it was 250-300 km. which number is correct? Markussep ^Talk 16:32, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

A recent tornado

On the history section and at Modern Ilia, write: "A F? tornado ravaged central Ilia and strucked the hilly areas that included Pelopio and caused minor damage in November 2009". and I am not sure to also create a new page called: History of Ilia or also known as History of the Ilia Prefecture.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chania Prefecture which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 15:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

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Requested move 4 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Elis. There is a reasonable proposal to reshuffle the material from this article, Ancient Elis, Medieval Elis into a WP:BROADCONCEPT article, as proposed by TSventon, but this is out of the RM scope. No such user (talk) 12:22, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

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Elis (regional unit) → Elis – eponymous article with Category:Elis Gjs238 (talk) 03:40, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support, looks good to me. But first, Special:WhatLinksHere/Elis needs to be reviewed, and all antiquity-related links to Elis updated to Ancient Elis or Elis (city) (piped to display just "Elis"). These are currently incorrectly redirected here, since the page move last October. – Fayenatic London 12:05, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose, the pageviews do not indicate a clear primary topic. Move Elis (disambiguation) to Elis, per WP:NOPRIMARY. 162 etc. (talk) 16:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per 162, move the DAB to the base name. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:16, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  Strike per below, as noted most of the highly viewed topics refer to the same place, the band is the next highest with 370[[1]]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:05, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  [2] shows that when the article Ancient Elis was at the page name Elis (up to Oct 2020), it had by far the greatest number of views. Elis (regional unit) is currently getting most, but I think this is partly because Gjs238 redirected "Elis" to it. After I've finished disambiguating the incoming links, the Ancient and (city) pages will get a lot more views than they have had until now. But anyway, the primary topic is clearly the place rather than the band or the human name (etc), so it will be best to have the article about the current place Elis (including its history) at Elis, modified as proposed below by TSventon. – Fayenatic London 07:55, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support, IMO the pageviews cited above indicate that the regional unit is the primary topic, with more than twice as many views as the second topic, Ancient Elis. Markussep ^Talk 08:10, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Generally, primary topics should have more pageviews than all other topics combined, see WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Furthermore, there could easily be confusion between these topics, as they are related to the same area. 162 etc. (talk) 15:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Question to 162 etc. and Crouch, Swale, isn't this a case of WP:CONCEPTDAB, where several related topics can be covered in a broad-concept article? Elis (regional unit) covers almost the same area as Ancient Elis, whose capital was Elis (city) and the regional unit article includes links to the other two. TSventon (talk) 09:27, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

That's a discussion worth having, although I don't believe this RM is the place for it. 162 etc. (talk) 15:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

One advantage of that suggestion is that it might provide a better target for the current links to "Elis" from articles on medieval history (Principality of Achaea, Karytaina, William of Champlitte, Carlo I Tocco, Battle of Manolada, Centurione II Zaccaria), and generic references to the place name (List of Greek place names, Polish exonyms). – Fayenatic London 15:08, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Fayenatic, are you suggesting a new broad-concept article on the subject? I was thinking of adapting the regional unit article, e.g. by adding to the lead. TSventon (talk) 13:00, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

TSventon That will probably suffice. I have now created a redirect to the History section, Medieval Elis, and used it in several articles. I also added some more meanings to the dab page. Most links to "Elis" can be disambiguated; I think only the generic references to the place name will be left. – Fayenatic London 21:54, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support Clearly more significant than other articles in disambiguation. Dimadick (talk) 20:13, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support based on responses to my question above. TSventon (talk) 15:09, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Updating wikilinks

Fayenatic and others, as Fayenatic pointed out above, wikilinks to Elis are a bit confused due to the history of the articles, so I would like to discuss them separately from the move.

Articles on Elis
Ancient Elis article was started in 2002 (as Elis). It was moved to Ancient Elis in 2020. Elis (regional unit) article was started in 2003 (as Ilia Prefecture). Elis (city) article was started in 2018.

I understand that the state of Elis was larger than the city of Elis, e.g. J. Roy says (via Google books) "The town of Elis may well however have been developed in 471 as the political centre of the Elean state." I therefore believe that the best link for most links relating to Elis in antiquity is Ancient Elis rather than Elis (city). The content of "Ancient Elis" is also more relevant as "Elis (city)" mainly covers the location and buildings of the town and is out of date as it is largely copied from William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography: Abacaenum-Hytanis of 1854. TSventon (talk) 20:37, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I have been linking to them as follows:

to Ancient Elis for: the district containing Pisa, Olympia, etc; the tribe or language of the Eleans (sometimes using the redirect Eleans)

to Elis (city), i.e. the polis city-state, for: a specific location, e.g. on a route; archaeology; birthplace/place of origin of an ancient person who is stated to be "from Elis"; kings of Elis; Elis as a political/military ally

Of these, it is probably just the last two types (kings and military) that call for discussion. E.g. History of Sparta. – Fayenatic London 21:39, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Fayenatic Thank you for updating most of the links to Elis and creating the Medieval Elis redirect. I think the question is what do or what should the articles cover and the wikilinks should follow from that. I would distinguish between

• 1 The urban settlement of Elis
• 2 The state (polis) of Elis: Roy refers to "the kernel of the Elean state in Koile Elis-Pisatis"
• 3 The symmachy of Elis (the polis plus dependent areas)
• 4 The region of Elis (Hollow Elis, Pisatis, Triphylia and possibly Acroreia)

Of these, I believe Elis (city) covers 1 and Ancient Elis covers 2-4. However the lead of Elis (city) says it was a "polis (city-state)", which suggests it covers 2. For comparison the city and state of Athens are covered by Classical Athens, the Athenian Empire by the Delian league and the region of Athens by Attica. I would reword the lead of Elis (city) to clarify that it covers the capital city, rather than the entire polis, what do you think? TSventon (talk) 15:04, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

@TSventon: I think that sounds helpful. If this is done then I'd be happy to change incoming links in articles about kings or military topics, from the city to Ancient Elis. – Fayenatic London 16:37, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

@Fayenatic london: Can I move this discussion to Talk:Ancient Elis? I have updated the leads, any feedback is welcome. I will probably post a link to this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome for their feedback. I would also like to discuss how to clarify that the Elis (city) is mostly quoted from William Smith's Dictionary, perhaps by formatting the article as a quotation. TSventon (talk) 17:06, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

No objection to moving this discussion. A link should also be posted at Talk:Elis (city). As for the quotation, I don't think anything more than the existing source template is necessary. – Fayenatic London 12:22, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Fayenatic london: I have placed a link at Talk:Elis (city). I know that public domain text can be included in Wikipedia articles, but Elis (city) incorporates a lot of nineteenth century text with minimal updating, so I thought it was worth starting a discussion about how or whether the article could be improved. I will leave this discussion where it is for the moment in case WP:CGR members want to contribute. TSventon (talk) 12:52, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I have now updated incoming links about kings & alliances to Ancient Elis rather than the city. – Fayenatic London 08:44, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

• Elis (city) should be merged into Ancient Elis. The user who created the first article in 2018 used exclusively Smith, who wrote about the city-state of Elis (eg. the polis=urban area+depending territories). There may be enough ground to create an article about the region in antiquity, but most of the academic literature on the whole area deals with Olympia and the games, which was for most of their history within the polis of Elis, of which I don't think there is that much to say. The articles on Classical Athens and Sparta cover the city-state (or polis), the region in antiquity (Attica and Laconia), and the urban center. T8612 (talk) 18:21, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree that they should be merged - there is a distinction between Elis the town and Elis the political entity, but it's a very fine one and it seems difficult to improve the quality of the article(s) while keeping the two topics separate. Nor is either topic currently large enough to require separation for length reasons. And as T8612 says, dealing with both together is wiki's normal practice; cf. Ancient Corinth, Argos, Peloponnese, Thebes, Greece, Sicyon. Furius (talk) 19:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

T8612, Furius, I have copied your posts to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Classical Greece and Rome#Ancient Elis and Elis (city) to keep discussion about Elis (city) in one place. TSventon (talk) 16:56, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

No objection to merger, but there should be a separate section for the capital city, and Elis (city) should redirect to that section, to make sense of incoming links about Elis as a birthplace / place on a route / archaeological site. – Fayenatic London 08:44, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Fayenatic, I have copied your post to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Classical Greece and Rome#Ancient Elis and Elis (city) to keep discussion about Elis (city) in one place. TSventon (talk) 08:51, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

• For info, new redirects Medieval Elis and Ottoman Elis both point to the History section, while several redirects using "prefecture" just point to the page. I have inserted a mention of Elis Prefecture in the lede. – Fayenatic London 09:11, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

References