Talk:Dmitry Bykov

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• His poem about Russia and Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. My very best wishes (talk) 02:14, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Stop trying to add false information not present in the source

@My very best wishes: The first newsru source you attempted to insert, the article says:

Позднее он заявил, что перенес отравление, но медики не смогли установить тип яда и то, каким образом он попал в организм. При этом Быков отверг версию о покушении, организованном властями. "Никуда я не буду обращаться, - сказал он в ответ на вопрос, будет ли обращаться в правоохранительные органы для выяснения обстоятельств. - Я думаю, что если бы меня хотели отравить, то меня бы отравили [...]"

This roughly translates to He later stated that he suffered poisoning, but doctors could not establish the type of poison and how it got into the body. At the same time, Bykov rejected the version of the assassination attempt organized by the authorities. "I will not go anywhere," he said in response to a question whether he would go to law enforcement agencies to clarify the circumstances. "I think that if they wanted to poison me, they would poison me [...]" This is further supported by another newsru article. No mention of Novichok.

The second msk.ru source, only refers to Bykov once and says:

В комментариях к этой публикации пользователи начали выписывать совпадения, которые показались им значимыми. Например, в 2019-ом один из возможных агентов летал в Ростов-на-Дону в те же дни, что и писатель Дмитрий Быков, а прошло это за несколько дней до его отравления.

This roughly translates to In the comments to this publication, users began to write out matches that seemed significant to them. For example, in 2019, one of the possible agents flew to Rostov-to-Don on the same days as the writer Dmitry Bykov, and this passed a few days before his poisoning, which does not imply any kind of poisoning by Novichok.

Lastly, the NBC News opinion piece, never directly says that his poisoning was caused by Novichok, it even says that the "poison" was never identified. Please stop trying to add information not present in the sources. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 14:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

• First of all, Bykov was saying a lot of different things. However, after poisoning of Navalny, he is saying in interviews he thinks he was poisoned by Novichok. See also here, for example. Secondly, no, all these sources (except first BBC article used to source a different part of the statement) clearly make a connection between Bykov poisoning and Novichok (hence this is not WP:SYN). Third, if you want even more sources, then sure, see an article by grani.ru above for example. It even includes a photo of Bykov. No one said this is a fact. This is mostly an allegation, partly supported by one of Belingcat investigations, but it is a notable and reliably published allegation. My very best wishes (talk) 15:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

  However, after poisoning of Navalny, he is saying in interviews he thinks he was poisoned by Novichok. Why not use that as a source then? The grani ru source also makes no mention of Novichok. It writes the following about Bykov:

  Поездки еще одного сотрудника ФСБ могут быть связаны с госпитализацией писателя Дмитрия Быкова в апреле 2019 года. Быкову стало плохо 17 апреля во время перелета из Екатеринбурга в Уфу. За 10 дней до этого, 7 апреля, Быков выступал с лекцией в Ростове-на-Дону. 6 апреля туда же прилетел Паняев, а на следующий день вылетел в столицу. Сам Быков позже заявлял, что считает причиной случившегося именно отравление.

  This roughly translates to: The trips of another FSB officer may be related to the hospitalization of the writer Dmitry Bykov in April 2019. Bykov became ill on April 17 during a flight from Yekaterinburg to Ufa. 10 days earlier, on April 7, Bykov gave a lecture in Rostov-on-Don. On April 6, Panyaev flew there, and the next day he flew to the capital. Bykov himself later stated that he considered the poisoning to be the cause of the incident, which once again does not imply in any way that it was done by Novichok.

  This is mostly an allegation, partly supported by one of Belingcat investigations. That is fine, however in order for an allegation to be a part of an article, someone needs to allege it. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 15:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I think you simply do not read these Russian language sources. In particular, the grani.ru article lists all cases where different people (including Bykov) were probably killed by the FSB by poisoning them with Novickok (according to investigation by Christo Grozev of Bellingcat) or by other means. It starts from the following: "Журналист-расследователь Христо Грозев (Bellingcat) перед самым Новым годом опубликовал базу данных о перелетах сотрудников ФСБ, причастных к отравлению Алексея Навального. В документе отражены все поездки членов секретной группы с 2005 года." And so on. Same with Echo of Moscow and news.ru. My very best wishes (talk) 15:52, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Christo Grozev was the primary researcher of Bellingcat who investigated the whole thing with poisoning of Navalny [1]. My very best wishes (talk) 16:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

And no, the article tells it directly: "Поездки еще одного сотрудника ФСБ могут быть связаны с госпитализацией писателя Дмитрия Быкова", meaning that not only it was "possibly" Novichok, but it was possibly an attempted assassination by the FSB. My very best wishes (talk) 16:15, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

You claimed that you are not synthesizing information, but then you go ahead and say that the vague translated statement The trips of another FSB officer may be related to the hospitalization of the writer Dmitry Bykov implies Novichok poisoning which implies FSB assassination. Neither of those two are not mentioned anywhere in the article. And again, from the newsru article:

При этом Быков отверг версию о покушении, организованном властями. "Никуда я не буду обращаться, - сказал он в ответ на вопрос, будет ли обращаться в правоохранительные органы для выяснения обстоятельств.

At the same time, Bykov rejected the version of the assassination attempt organized by the authorities. "I will not go anywhere," he said in response to a question whether he would go to law enforcement agencies to clarify the circumstances.

He clearly denies it being an assassination attempt. This is WP:OR at its finest. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 16:40, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

As I already said, Bykov was saying a lot of different things in the past, but after the poisoning of Navalny and Bellingcat investigations, he (and most importantly, the cited sources) say it was a possible FSB/GRU assassination with Novichok. My very best wishes (talk) 16:45, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

And as I have already said, can you source those claims? You haven't sent any source containing the interview you mentioned earlier or Bykov's claims of assassination. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 16:47, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

That was my edit [2], and the statement was supported by cited sources. My very best wishes (talk) 16:54, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

In grani.ru it says: (rough translation) Bykov himself later stated that he considered the poisoning to be the cause of the incident.

He does not make any further claims about it being done by the FSB or it being Novichok in particular.

NBCnews is a blog post which says: [...] unfortunately, the poison was never identified, making direct attribution difficult even as the culprit seems obvious. A similar story can be found in the cases of other poisoned domestic opposition figures, including Vladimir Kara-Murza and Dmitry Bykov. -> Poison was never identified, they do not claim it was Novichok.

The third source doesn't claim Bykov said anything. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 17:27, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the poison was not identified in many cases. No one is saying that it was. It was developed to be undetectable after a period of time. But the sources do claim it was possibly/probably Novichok. The NBC source ("Did Putin order Russia's latest poison attack? What Navalny's Novichok diagnosis tells us") is not a blog, and it tells:

No matter who is pulling the puppet strings, the poisoning of Navalny clearly reflects the growing impunity with which Russia's security services are operating both on their own soil and abroad. On the domestic front, the poisoning of Pyotr Verzilov, an avant garde performance artist-turned-investigative reporter, is instructive. Two years ago, while working on an investigation into the activities of Russian billionaire Yevgeny Prigozhin and his GRU-linked mercenary group in the Central African Republic, Verzilov was poisoned with an unidentified substance in Moscow and was later treated at the same Berlin hospital as Navalny. Fortunately, Verzilov recovered, but unfortunately, the poison was never identified, making direct attribution difficult even as the culprit seems obvious. A similar story can be found in the cases of other poisoned domestic opposition figures, including Vladimir Kara-Murza and Dmitry Bykov.

Same with other sources.My very best wishes (talk) 17:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

My bad, it is an opinion piece, not a blog.

But the sources do claim it was possibly/probably Novichok.

Again, none of the sources claimed that it probably/possibly was Novichok. All of them mentioned poisoning, but didn't specify or imply that it was Novichok. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 18:02, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

• So, the article entitled "Did Putin order Russia's latest poison attack? What Navalny's Novichok diagnosis tells us (and with citation above) does not imply Novichok? As about grani.ru, I have no idea where you got such citation. It tells: "Сам Быков позже заявлял, что считает причиной случившегося именно отравление.", i.e. exactly the opposite. My very best wishes (talk) 18:08, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

  So, the article entitled "Did Putin order Russia's latest poison attack? What Navalny's Novichok diagnosis tells us Headlines can't be used when not supported in the body, per WP:HEADLINE.

  As about grani.ru, I have no idea where you got such citation. What citation? I already translated the russian quote you sent. He says he was poisoned, which I agree with you happened, but he does not mention Novichok or FSB involvement. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 18:38, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

The vast majority of reliable sources allege that he was poisoned by the Russian government, and you seem to be coming off from this from the angle of "I don't like it therefore it shouldn't be included." Irregardless of what reliable citations state. Des Vallee (talk) 00:18, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Then put in that he was poisoned by the Russian government and source it, instead of claiming it was Novichok without a source, no? CPCEnjoyer (talk) 11:47, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

• Speaking about last edit, Bykov did say that he does not think that was work by FSB/GRU agents, but he said it in April 2019 - see here: [3]. Citing this as you did creates wrong impression that he thinks it now, after the poisoning of Navalny and investigation of Belingcat. He does not [4]. Also, news.ru is a pro-government source. That's why I replaced it by another source. My very best wishes (talk) 05:25, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

  He does not [4] Can you please give me the timestamp in the video where he says that he now believes it was the government?

  If it really is such an issue, we can simply say add in "[...] at the time, Bykov denied this [...]" and continue on with the paragraph. I rewrote the part about bellingcat's reported investigation because the wording and the flow of the sentence was a bit weird, I feel like it is better if we say that Bellingcat has alleged or investigated such things, because using the words "reportedly investigated" is a bit tricky. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 10:09, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

  I've looked at another gordonua article and I believe I found what you are talking about: Что касается меня, то для меня тоже было с самого начала очевидно, что и в отношении меня была проведена целенаправленная операция.

  Rough translation: As for me, it was also obvious to me from the very beginning that a purposeful operation was carried out against me, so we should put this in as well. Perhaps we should say that [...] at the time, Bykov denied this and said [...] However, after the poisoning of Navalny, he said there were "too many similarities" and it was "also obvious to me from the very beginning that a purposeful operation was carried out against me"? CPCEnjoyer (talk) 10:42, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

First of all, based on comments by Bykov (his opinion changed over the time), he does not know anything and can only guess. Therefore,his different comments about it are undue on this page as a pure speculation. Secondly, his inconsistent comments were used by state-connected media (such as news.ru) to downplay his poisoning. We should not repeat it on the page. My very best wishes (talk) 16:02, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

He doesn't claim his opinion changed over time, he says it was "obvious to [him] from the very beginning that a purposeful operation was carried out against [him]". Claiming that his opinion on the situation is "undue" because it is "pure speculation", while saying that an uninvolved person "reportedly investigated" the situation is due doesn't sit well with me. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 16:13, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, an opinion expressed two years ago [5] (one that you included on the page) is irrelevant because the situation completely changed after the poisoning of Navalny and recently published results of investigations. That helped to look at a number of other poisoning "incidents", includint that one, in a different light, as a number of RS say, including the sources currently cited on this page. My very best wishes (talk) 16:37, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Latest publications

The results of nvestigations by Bellingcat [6], Der Spiegel and The Insider [7] just were published, see RFE/RL about it [8]. The FSB agents shadowed and poisoned him while he was giving lectures to kids about Harry Potter, Karlsson-on-the-Roof and Russian jokes. He said he has no idea why he was targeted. In one of lectures he compared Putin with an alien. My very best wishes (talk) 13:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)