Talk:Concessions of Italy in China

This creative article is a joke

This article created a few days ago, and purporting to show that Italy owned this and that concession and area in China is pure nonsense. As anyone can see by reading William Johnstone's article (see below) the only concession Italy ever had in China was in Tientsin (Tianjin). Like the French, the British, the Russian, the German, the Italians were also allowed to keep a small garrison at one of the forts on the road to Peking at Shan Hai Kuan following the Boxer War. The "own work" map showing an "Italian area" in Shanghai is a joke. The sum total of the Italian presence in China was the concession at Tientsin and the fort at Shan Hai Kuan (not classified as a concession). This crazy article should be deleted.

William. C. Johnstone: « International Relations: The Status of Foreign Concessions and Settlements in the Treaty Ports of China », The American Political Science Review, no 5, Oct. 1937, p. 942-948 Lubiesque (talk) 00:27, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I think this is a SERIOUS article and not a joke.....may be the joke is the one done by the french Lubiesque who is not checking the 24 books written in italian about the 7 territories and commercial sites that the kingdom of Italy owned for nearly fifty years in the first half of the XX century. I am going to name only two of these books, as a proof that there were "concessions" (meaning not only a colonial possession with full rights like the "Concession of Tientsin", but also fortifications, commercial areas in ports, partial colonial rights in the International concession of Shanghai, ownership of the Italian legation of Pekin, partial concession of commercial rights in Amoy and Hankow, etc..):

• 1) "Colonia italiana in Cina", of Sandro Bassetti. ISBN 8848816568
• 2) "Italy’s Encounters with Modern China: Imperial Dreams, Strategic Ambitions", by M. Marinelli, Guido Samarani. ISBN 1137290935

It is unbelievable that Lubiesque remembers only Tientsin, but "forgets" the so-called commercial quarters of Shanghai and Beijing (under the direct sovereignty of Rome as from 1901, after the failed Boxers' revolt)

Furthermore here it is an excerpt from another book (Giovanni Cucchi.Una bandiera italiana in Cina.Introduzione):

the main "Italian Privileges" in concessions in China, obtained after the military expedition of 1900, consisted of: 1. Recognition of Italian ownership of the area in the foreign legations of Beijing; 2. Recognition of the Italian concession in Tianjin of 46 hectares; 3. Recognition of the Italian ownership of the Shan Hai-Kwan Fort; 4. Recognition of the Italian ownership of the anchorage at Ta-Ku in the estuary of the Pei-Ho river; 5. Authorization to use the international business districts of Shanghai, Hankow and Amoy (Xiamen, Fujian); 6. The most important and numerous Italian presence was located in Tianjin.... (I principali "Privilegi Italiani" nelle concessioni in Cina, ottenuti dopo la spedizione militare del 1900, consistevano in: 1. Riconoscimento della proprietà di area italiana nelle legazioni straniere di Pechino; 2. Riconoscimento concessione italiana a Tianjin di 46 ettari; 3. Riconoscimento della proprietà italiana del Forte di Shan Hai-Kwan; 4. Riconoscimento della proprietà italiana dell'ancoraggio a Ta-Ku nell'estuario del fiume Pei-Ho; 5. Autorizzazione all'utilizzo dei distretti commerciali internazionali di Shanghai, Hankow e Amoy (Xiamen, nel Fujian); 6. La presenza italiana più importante e numerosa situata a Tianjin)

Finally, allow me to pinpoint that the book of Johnstone -named by Lubiesque- is related only to the "Treaty ports" and not all China. Hope these explanations are enaugh.....and so I am going to cancel the erase and move (while changing a bit some things in the essay & add references).--Hvalencia (talk) 20:23, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

In Shanghai and Amoy, Italy was only granted commercial right and rights to take part in the administration of the international settlements there, along with several other countries. Italy had no territorial concessions there.

I've been searching the Italian-language Web for articles about the Italian concessionS (plural) in China. Unsurprisingly, all that I found related to the sole concession Italy ever possessed in China, Tientsin (Tianjin):

+++Le colonie italiane in Cina a Tientsin [Pillole di Storia]

+++Tientsin. La concessione italiana. Storia delle relazioni tra Italia e Cina (1866-1947)

+++La storia (dimenticata) della colonia italiana in Cina

+++L’Italia in Cina: la colonia di Tientsin : "In 1946, Italy renounced for good the privileges granted by China in 1901, thus restituting the territory it held in Tientsin. The Italian colonial adventure in the Far East could be said to be definitely over".

Nowhere in these Italian-language articles is there any mention that Italy ever possessed any other concession than the one at Tianjin. This fanciful article with its bogus, doctored maps needs to be completely rewritten, or better, deleted.--Lubiesque (talk) 21:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Please, read my last answer to Lubiesque in the following section--Hvalencia (talk) 16:53, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Concessions can be full, local/partial or "jointly held"

I am astonished reading the above comments of Lubiesque and suggest to him to SERIOUSLY read what is written in our wikipedia about what is a concession. Here it is the en.wikioedia description:

Concessions & leases: ([1]): In international relations, a concession is a "synallagmatic" act by which a State transfers the exercise of rights or functions proper to itself to a foreign private test which, in turn, participates in the performance of public functions and thus gains a privileged position vis-a-vis other private law subjects within the jurisdiction of the State concerned.

That means that the rights and functions can be territorial or only "partial and/or local" according to diplomatic agreements (like in the Romania concession with the "Romanian Institute in Albania") as can be read in the named wikipedia article about concessions.

Furthermore, I want to pinpoint that the concessions can also be "Jointly held concessions", as can be read in the same article. Please read the following excerpts:

21 September 1863 (after the 1862 Proposal to make Shanghai an independent "free city" was rejected) an International Settlement in Shanghai was created by union of the American and British concessions (consummated December 1863); in 1896 the concession was expanded. On 7 July 1927, a Chinese city government of Greater Shanghai was formally established. Its internationality can be seen in the flag of the Ministry of Industry and Trade-Shanghai: Flags of the Austria-Hungary, Denmark, Third Republic of France, Kingdom of Italy, Netherlands, German Empire, United Kingdom of Sweden-Norway, Kingdom of Portugal, Russian Empire, Kingdom of Spain, United Kingdom and United States of America. Belgium, Peru, Mexico, Japan and Switzerland were also part of the international concession.

Another example of jointly held concessions is written in the same wikipedia article about Amoy:

On January 10, 1902, the consuls of Great Britain, the United States, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden-Norway, Japan and other eight countries signed the "Gulangyu delimitation charter" in the Gulangyu Japanese Consulate. Subsequently, in January 1903, the Gulangyu International Settlement Municipal Council was established

And finally a third example of this kind of "concession" is given in the same article:

Beijing Legation Quarter: a de facto concession

Finally, I wonder why Lubiesque cannot read the 3 books I have named in my former comment written yesterday (a simple google research will help him to find it). Anyway, I am adding to the article "Concessions of Italy in China" also the quote about Gulangyu from the wiki article about "Concessions & leases". Sorry, but I am very busy and for a while I will stop writing on wikipedia. --Hvalencia (talk) 19:00, 11 May 2023 (UTC)