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This is an interesting social phenomenon that is occurring in subsets of society today and this article could certainly use some more detail and references/sources. Clarebrady (talk) 23:04, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

I just added some content to ensure that the article is unbiased and more in-depth. Clarebrady (talk) 23:36, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Contents

Merger proposalEdit

I propose to merge cancel culture into call-out culture/outrage culture. Both of these terms are clearly related. While I agree that they describe different phenomenon, they are interrelated and often "calling out" (and being "outraged") leads to "canceling". Cancel culture is a newer term than call-out culture, though both have been around a while. Because of that, and the fact that the "call-out"/"outrage" often precedes "cancel", I think the content in both articles should be merged into call-out culture.

Pinging the top 10 contributers (excluding myself) between both articles: DeRossitt Koyyo Equinox Shintaraguru Daniel Case Clarebrady Netoholic TheUnbeholden HenryBarnill Pokerplayer513. - PaulT+/C 02:38, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

  • Oppose for now. Closely related, sure, but not seeing a lot of reliable sources that relate/equate the two. -- Netoholic @ 02:52, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
    Fair point, but compare the definitions for both terms:
    "social phenomenon of publicly denouncing perceived racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, national interest, and other forms of bigotry" vs
    "no longer morally, financially, and/or digitally supporting people—usually celebrities—or things that have been deemed unacceptable or problematic"
    The public denouncing *is* the cancelling. The more that I think about it, cancel culture is very much a subset of call-out culture. The examples of the former from the article are universally examples of the latter as well. (I also added them to the call-out culture article because they fit so well.) We'll have to see what others think. - PaulT+/C 03:10, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
    I don't necessarily think the opening lines are very good. But in either case, our interpretation of their relative overlap doesn't matter. Sources don't seem to equate the topic. So I'll ask you to please stop merging the articles and conflating them at least until we get more input. -- Netoholic @ 03:21, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
    You beat me to the revert... I'm fine with leaving it as-is while the discussion unfolds.
    Is there an example of cancelling that wouldn't apply to outrage/calling out? - PaulT+/C 03:33, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
    Yes, there are call-outs that don't involve calling for cancellation (of a book, movie, etc)...such as when there is a call for a change (e.g., the DVD cover for the film Pride (2014 film) was allegedly straightwashed by having LGBT slogans airbrushed out. I assume putting back the LGBT slogans on the DVD cover would be a satisfactory resolution to this concern.)OnBeyondZebraxTALK 23:37, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
    I may have been less clear than I intended. You are describing the reverse of what I mean. You are saying you can have a "call-out" without a "cancel", I agree and am not disputing that point. The point I'm trying to make is that you cannot have a "cancel" without a "call-out" first and therefore having a separate cancel article doesn't make much sense if it is impossible to cancel without first being called out/outraged. To put it another way, "cancel" is a subset of "call-out" and therefore the former ("cancel") should be a subsection of the latter ("call-out"). Otherwise, you end up having to describe "call-out" in two places with seemingly no benefit and arguably the downside of having to maintain two separate articles about the same general concept. - PaulT+/C 04:15, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment Not sure. I suppose it is essentially a consequence of call-out culture. Although it seems the term has become just as commonly used as "call-out culture" and "outrage culture", but isn't interchangeable as those two are. It's a separate thing that has emerged in the last year and has been dominating current culture with things like Leaving Neverland and Surviving R. Kelly, both of which are seemingly targeted at the public to "cancel" these celebrities rather than to merely call them out. Although, again, I'm not sure since in many recent articles I have read it seems the lines between the two have been blurred, wherin the act of calling out simultaneously demands cancelling. But, again, they still aren't interchangeable and merging the article as a redirect seems like an inevitably sloppy solution. Koyyo (talk) 03:28, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment They seem to be closely related. The way columnists like David Brooks (NYT) are describing it, when a person does a call-out, it is to denounce the allegedly offensive person, thereby causing the reduction of their support online...so they seem like steps a) and b) in social media denunciation. But not sure if we can have one article, as not every call-out is calling for cancellation. Some call-outs call for the person to educate themselves.OnBeyondZebraxTALK 23:33, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
    That sounds like an argument to support the merge to me. You can easily have a single article describing the various results of a "call-out" - inclusive of "cancel" and other possibilities. Having two separate articles would require unnecessary redundancy and could lead to confusion. - PaulT+/C 04:15, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. These are almost identical concepts. Popcornduff (talk) 04:24, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Support Ilovetopaint (talk) 08:54, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. DeRossitt (talk) 02:21, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. Sourcerery (talk) 23:22, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment - Any additional thoughts, OnBeyondZebrax, Koyyo, or Netoholic? It looks like there is pretty widespread support for this merge. - PaulT+/C 04:44, 11 April 2019 (UTC) Hmm... it seems Koyyo was blocked for being a sockpuppet... They were also the creator of cancel culture. However, I don't think that changes anything one way or the other. - PaulT+/C 04:48, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
    Yes, its a terrible idea. cancel culture is simply a modern form of a boycott. That's the better merge target. Merging here conflates this topic. "Calling out" does not always result in a "cancel". -- Netoholic @ 04:55, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
    No one has asserted that every call-out results in a cancel, but the reverse is true (at least as far as I have seen). I have not seen one example of a cancelling that was not preceded by a call out. That is why call-out is the better target, it is (if ever so slightly) broader (and therefore "cancel" can neatly fit as a subsection in the parent "call-out" article). - PaulT+/C 05:01, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
    Every serving of tea goes into a teacup, that doesn't mean we merge the articles. -- Netoholic @ 08:59, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
    Are you really arguing tea is to teacup as cancel culture is to call-out culture (tea:teacup::cancel culture:call-out culture)? You know that is a ridiculous comparison. Even so, if the content in "tea" were substantially similar and repetitive to the content in "teacup" (based on the available sources), then you better believe there would be efforts to merge both articles into "teacup". You can plainly see this through the concurrences with my argument from Popcornduff, Ilovetopaint, DeRossitt, and Sourcerery in the above discussion. Furthermore, you can easily articulate the differences and limits to "tea" vs "teacup". Plainly, "tea" is not a subset of "teacup" and nor is the converse true. Whereas "cancel culture" is wholly subsumed into "call-out culture". If one were to make a Venn diagram for the terms, the circle for "cancel culture" would be completely inside the "call-out culture" circle. - PaulT+/C 17:49, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
    Having looked online for sources on both articles, it seems that there is not enough depth of content to justify two separate articles. The modest amount of coverage of cancellation culture means that this could be explained within the call-out culture article. A further demonstration of the close links between the concepts is that some sources refer to both concepts within a single sentence.OnBeyondZebraxTALK 22:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
    WP:MERGEREASON gives the WP rules/recommendations on good reasons to merge pages, which are: duplication (2 articles are exactly the same subject), overlap, shortness (the 2 articles are both short), and the need for context (that merging with provide). The context rationale is used when you will understand the article better if it is merged into a "parent" article. There are some "don't merge" rules, too, which are if the merge will make the new article too long or clunky; if the 2 articles have potential for expansion as separate articles; and if the topics are discrete. It seems there is overlap and need for context (plus a bit of duplication).OnBeyondZebraxTALK 23:09, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Support.OnBeyondZebraxTALK 22:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Origins/historyEdit

This could be a good header for a title if the article isn't merged. 2607:FEA8:1DE0:7B4:9D62:4D85:AD95:1CAB (talk) 21:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Expansion of "Examples" SectionEdit

Proposition to expand section titled "Examples". Looking to provide more real-world application of "Call-out" culture (eg) Kyler Murray tweets, recent Joe Biden allegations, James Gunn & Disney, etc These examples and continued scholarly contribution may provide additional context to readers Btorszag (talk) 20:56, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Links to proposed additions Biden https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/joe-biden-accused-of-inappropriate-physical-contact-by-multiple-women-says-he-will-change-his-behavior/2019/04/03/05b5ea58-5643-11e9-814f-e2f46684196e_story.html?utm_term=.ba3e987ace22 Gunn https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/15/disney-reinstated-director-james-gunn-for-guardians-of-the-galaxy-3.html Murray https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/09/us/kyler-murray-tweets-apology/index.html Btorszag (talk) 21:22, 3 April 2019 (UTC)


I've added a note to that section and removed some "examples". Any examples we use must be referred in their sources as examples of "call-out culture" or "cancel culture". They can't be just what we think are examples, because that is WP:Original research. Also, these are "examples" - we don't need every single one. Pick a few, and make sure they are very high quality - the more sources that cite them as call-out/cancel examples, the better - and remove any lesser-quality ones. -- Netoholic @ 21:41, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

The source for Black Mirror specifically mentions outrage as in outrage culture, which is synonymous and so I've added that example back. There are a number of examples currently present at cancel culture that will also be merged into this article as well. You might want to look there to see how much larger an example section can (and maybe should) be. The examples should show how vindictive the outrage is, how it can be applied in both small and large instances, and how it can be directed inappropriately to parties where it is not warranted. The examples should show the "good" as well as the "bad". - PaulT+/C 09:41, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
No, it mentions "online outrage". A singular example of outrage does not equate to it being a clear example of "outrage culture". Examples are fine, but they need to be clearly relevant to the main topic (to the casual reader) and high-quality. -- Netoholic @ 11:12, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Are you really arguing that "People have a frightening tendency to mercilessly pile on with online outrage when somebody does something unpopular" from [1] doesn't refer to "outrage culture"? What else would "mercilessly pile on with online outrage" be? This is not WP:SYNTH. See WP:SYNNOT, specifically:
WP:NOTJUSTANYSYNTH: SYNTH is not just any synthesis: ... Some old versions of NOR even said "Wikipedia is a secondary source (one that analyzes, assimilates, evaluates, interprets, and/or synthesizes primary sources) or tertiary source ..."[2] (emphasis added).,
SYNTH is not primarily point-by-point: ... Very old versions of NOR focused on crackpot theories being published whole, not on single statements within the exposition of a body of well-established fact. The under-the-microscope level of scrutiny often practiced now, which demands removal of a single clause until a source can be found that presents the material the same way, is more a result of creep than of well-thought-out policy.,
SYNTH is not unpublishably unoriginal: When you look at a case of putative SYNTH, apply the following test. Suppose you took this claim to a journal that does publish original research. Would they (A) vet your article for correctness, documentation, and style, and publish it if it met their standards in those areas? Or would they (B) laugh in your face because your "original research" is utterly devoid of both originality and research, having been common knowledge in the field since ten years before you were born? If you chose (B), it's not original research -- even if it violates the letter of WP:SYNTH.,
and most broadly SYNTH is not a rigid rule: Wikipedia doesn't have them, supposedly. But if a policy gets enforced zealously, it can be hard to tell the difference. The solution is to not enforce policies zealously. Never use a policy in such a way that the net effect will be to stop people from improving an article..
Also, per WP:BRD, you are contesting material (the Black Mirror example) that has been present in the article for quite some time and your changes/removals are being challenged. So, until consensus is formed here, the version with the material you are trying to remove should stay in the article as explained at WP:STATUSQUO. - PaulT+/C 17:09, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Also also, you are getting close to violating WP:3RR: 22:38, 13 April 2019 04:35, 14 April 2019 12:10, 14 April 2019. Please come to consensus here before reverting again. - PaulT+/C 17:19, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
I said nothing at all about WP:SYNTH, so this whole diatribe is pointless. Unless a source describes an event as an example of "call-out culture", we can't say it is. That is WP:OR and fails WP:Verifiability. Amazing that you think to try to call me out for reverts close to 3rr, when you've done the same number of reverts despite being asked to WP:BRD, are engaging in WP:OR as I say above, are using misleading edit summaries, and overall have been displaying wP:OWNership-like behavior over this article. -- Netoholic @ 21:44, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
If not WP:SYNTH, then what exactly are you citing at WP:OR? There is nothing original in the current statement about that episode being an example of the phenomenon as explicitly stated by the writer/creator Charlie Booker. The question posed to him at [3] is "People have a frightening tendency to mercilessly pile on with online outrage when somebody does something unpopular" and his response is "Pretty much. It was something I observed, and it's easy to caught up in yourself. There are times I've joined in the pile-on, it’s thrilling in some way." - directly verifiable. The word "culture" is a description of the phenomenon as a way to directly label it. Just because an example doesn't use that exact phrasing doesn't mean it isn't about the exact same topic. Asserting that is not "original research" nor is it "synthesis" that goes against the spirit of the guideline.
You may want to read WP:BRD a little more closely. Your removal of the Black Mirror content is what is being reverted and contested as the "R" in BRD. - PaulT+/C 22:00, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
@Psantora: The OR is that you have to stretch the interpretation so far to make it fit with the topic of this article, rather than finding better examples. Frankly, if there is even a debate as to interpretation, then the example is clearly not high quality and should be removed/replaced with something that is more clear. I find the Clinton and Neeson items adequate at least until other high quality and clear examples are found. That you claim to be for BRD is a bit late to the game, as that was exactly my directive to you, but you have reverted TWICE since then. In your two latest reverts you reinserted additional (extraneous) material related to Neeson, an item which you added very recently (failing your own call to BRD), and failed to mention Neeson in your edit summaries. I direct you to self-revert until we can get more outside views - only the Clinton and (shortened) Neeson are necessary for now. -- Netoholic @ 22:12, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Nothing is being stretched from the source. It is an example of the phenomenon. You are just asserting that in your opinion this is not the case. That is not what the source says. They directly reference "People have a frightening tendency to mercilessly pile on with online outrage when somebody does something unpopular", which is exactly what this article is about. You have not shown anything to contradict that other than your opinion, which is irrelevant (as is mine).
Regarding BRD, yes there was other content that you removed that was more recently added, but that doesn't change the fact that your first removal of content to the page was the "bold" edit because it also removed longstanding (ish, at least 2 weeks) content that had not been disputed before - the Black Mirror bullet. To be clear, I have not fully reverted your changes. You removed two other examples about Biden and Gunn, which were added by a student trying to complete a task for a course, that I agree are not sufficently supported by the sources to be included here.
Regarding the Neeson content, each sentence is directly sourced and gives very topical examples of the calling-out, the attempt to censure/cancel, and why the negative reaction to his statements was potentially unfounded. All sourced, all directly relevant as examples of the phenomenon and the potential consequences of it for both the people being called out and the ones who are outraged. I'm happy to discuss that in detail here, but if you are just going to dismiss arguments without directly addressing them as you have with the Black Mirror content we aren't going to have a very productive discussion.
I'm happy to hear from other editors about this dispute and I'm 100% open to other views on this. In the interests of having that productive discussion, (and despite my inclination) I will self-revert the addition of the Neeson example that you are disputing so we can discuss that example in a separate section below, however, the Black Mirror content should stand until consensus determines otherwise. - PaulT+/C 22:52, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Neeson example discussionEdit

There is a disupute as to how elaborate the example about Liam Neeson's comments should be in the article. The version I prefer is below:

The more condense version preferred by Netoholic is:

  • Liam Neeson faced calls for the cancellation of Cold Pursuit, a then-newly-produced movie, after he said in an interview with The Independent that he once "roamed the streets of Northern Ireland for a week looking for a random black man to kill after his friend told him that she was raped by a black man."[1][3]

I contend that the more elaborate version is appropriate for the article because it gives several types of examples of calling out and the consequences to calling out, as discussed earlier in the article.

The first sentence is largely identical between the two versions so I will not expound on it here other than to say that it does show the basic example of the situation, albeit with a reference[2] removed.

The next sentence: The film's red carpet premiere was cancelled because of the controversy.[4][5] shows a direct example of a consequence of the calling-out (also known as cancelling) and is therefore directly relevant.

The next sentence: In an appearance on Good Morning America, Neeson elaborated on his experience while denying being a racist.[6][7] shows Neeson's reaction to the call-out and how he might be misunderstood by the blind outrage being expressed by the public, again directly relevant to similar points earlier in the article.

The final two sentences: Trevor Noah defended Neeson, saying, "I want to live in a world where a person who said something like that is ashamed of it and they are telling it to you and you aren't catching them out", and that it was a "powerful admission".[8] Michelle Rodriguez,[8] Whoopi Goldberg,[9] and Ralph Fiennes[10] have also defended Neeson. show how others are coming to Neeson's defense again as an example of how there was an overreaction in this case. Again, explicitly examples of points raised earlier in the article.

I'm interested to hear what others think about which version is a better way to show examples of the call-out/outrage/cancel phenomenon. - PaulT+/C 23:16, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b Joda, Joshua (15 February 2019). "How 'Cancel Culture' Risks Eliminating Nuance From Public Conversation". HuffPost. Verizon Media. Retrieved 16 March 2019.
  2. ^ a b Michallon, Clémence (4 February 2019). "Liam Neeson: 'I walked the streets with a cosh, hoping I'd be approached by a "black bastard" so that I could kill him'". The Independent. Retrieved 4 February 2019.
  3. ^ a b Michallon, Clémence. "Liam Neeson interview: Rape, race and how I learnt revenge doesn't work". The Independent. Retrieved 5 February 2019. Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; name "IndependentRevenge" defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
  4. ^ a b "Liam Neeson's 'Cold Pursuit' red carpet canceled after he reveals racist revenge story". USA Today. 5 February 2019. Retrieved 6 February 2019.
  5. ^ a b "Red carpet nixed after Liam Neeson reveals racist thoughts". Associated Press. Retrieved 6 February 2019.
  6. ^ a b Blistein, Jon. "Liam Neeson Talks Racist Revenge Fantasy on 'Good Morning America'". Rolling Stone. Retrieved 6 February 2019.
  7. ^ a b Sherpard, Jack. "Liam Neeson interview: Actor denies being racist after admitting wanting to kill a black man". The Independent. Retrieved 6 February 2019.
  8. ^ a b c d https://people.com/movies/michelle-rodriguez-defends-liam-neeson-shocking-comments-wanting-kill-black-man/
  9. ^ a b https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/06/whoopi-goldberg-defends-friend-liam-neeson-insists-not-bigot/
  10. ^ a b https://www.irishpost.com/news/ralph-fiennes-defends-liam-neeson-164957
Return to "Call-out culture" page.