Talk:Bunhe

Requested move 3 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved (non-admin closure). Jenks24 (talk) 10:04, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

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Yunokomunarivsk → Bunhe – Per WP:COMMONNAME, search results for the Bunhe are over 100x those of the current title and Yunokomunarivs'k. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:23, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Ukraine has been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 15:23, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, the current consensus is not to move these localities until they come under Ukrainian control. Currently the old name is user in the city. Ymblanter (talk) 15:51, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Btw I do not believe in 100x, it should be some artifact of the search. Ymblanter (talk) 15:52, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

See this 5k result for Yunokomunarivsk vs this 627k result for Bunhe. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

If I click on the links you provided I see 82 results (not thousands, just 82) vs 92. On the top of each link I have a Google map which says "Yunokomunarivsk". It all strongly depends on the location and settings of the search. Ymblanter (talk) 16:54, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Click on "Tools" It enumerates the results. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:08, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this is exactly what I mentioned above: 82 vs 92. Ymblanter (talk) 17:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Aren't those Google popup maps made using data from Wikipedia and Wikidata itself? HappyWith (talk) 17:30, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

If I remove results from Wikipedia itself and filter out pre-name change results, I get 7,590 vs 191. HappyWith (talk) 17:33, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Web search does not represent reliable sources. See WP:WIAN for how and where to determine common name, and keep in mind WP:MODERNPLACENAME.

Google Books (Search English pages):

• "Bunhe" “Page 27 of about 10,400 results” (269 actually shown)
• "Yunokomunarivsk" “Page 2 of about 228 results” (15)

Is the name also a word in some other language or obscure term? Looks like it, after I narrowed the search adding Ukraine.

• "Bunhe" Ukraine Page 2 of about 226 results (19)
• "Yunokomunarivsk" Ukraine Page 2 of about 238 results (15)

Google Scholar:

• "Bunhe" Ukraine (Page 7 of 61 results)
• "Yunokomunarivsk" Ukraine (3 results)

So Bunhe is more common, but the number of sources is pretty small (caveat: I haven’t combed through the result above). Is it the “single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources”? If not, COMMONNAME says “editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering these criteria directly,” referring to the WP:CRITERIA (and keep in mind WP:CRITERIAORDER).

Or, if we can’t come to a consensus on that, then we can fall back to WP:UAPLACE: In most cases, use the Ukrainian national romanisation system to transliterate Ukrainian place names, unless an alternative name or transliteration is demonstrably more common in (English-language) reliable sources. Details are in Wikipedia:Romanization of Ukrainian.  —Michael Z. 02:29, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

It’s not even sourced in the article that Russia controls it. HappyWith (talk) 16:06, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Why do not you source it then? Or do you have doubts? Ymblanter (talk) 16:56, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I mean, yeah, obviously it's controlled by Russia. But I haven't seen a source that says Yunokomunarivsk is still the name used by Russia and the local population. HappyWith (talk) 17:53, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

 I sourced. UA0Volodymyr (talk) 12:26, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Also, what consensus, based on what policies? If the COMMONNAME argument is sound, I don’t see why the control of the city matters. It's not like we call Transnistria "Pridnestrovia". HappyWith (talk) 16:10, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

The argument is that there is no common English name (this is how the Ukrainian localities were treated here for 20 years), and the COMMONNAME does not apply. Ymblanter (talk) 16:56, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

In the past, a lot of these small villages and minor towns had no common English name because they weren't known. Now, with more of the English-language media's eyes on Ukraine, they are developing common names. I'm not totally decided on this specific RM - google searches aren't the best way to determine this kind of thing - but if a common English name can be determined, it should go to that title. HappyWith (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no such consensus. WP:UAPLACE reflects our consensus, which is to romanize the Ukrainian place name if there is no single English COMMONNAME.

As to “the old name is used in the city,” I assume people in the city may use either or both of Юнокомунарівськ and Бунге, but 1) which naming guideline does that relate to?, 2) I’ll grant that the first is probably more common in public because a violent occupation régime will torture them to death if they do not, but 3) WP:OFFICIALNAMES, and 4) we are not choosing between those Ukrainian names, but must use an English name. —Michael Z. 02:37, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

the current consensus is not to move these localities until they come under Ukrainian control. there is no such consensus, see the precedent in Kadiivka. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. A strict reading of the guidelines as I outlined above leads us to use the proposed name. This also follows the precedent of clear usage in reliable sources of the Ukrainian names of more prominent occupied places, like Luhansk not “Lugansk,” Bakhmut not “Artemivsk” nor “Artemovsk,” etcetera, and there’s no reason to make an exception for less well-known ones. Per the guidelines, due historical and alternate names should be given in the lead or added in parentheses on first mention. —Michael Z. 02:44, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

I believe the above follows the practice of current relaible sources. The Guardian style guide gives Ukrainian names for Ukrainian places, including occupied Luhansk, Berdiansk, and Enerhodar, and several formerly occupied places[1] (I do get that most of these haven’t been officially changed recently, but consistency leads us to use the official Ukrainian names, not the illegal “official” Russian Federation names in Ukraine). Similarly, AP Stylebook had a Russia–Ukraine War Topical Guide that used Ukrainian names for subjects in Ukraine, including occupied Luhansk and the Donbas.[2]  —Michael Z. 02:52, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support appears to be more common. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

By the way, Bunhe appears to also be a surname, it is a name more commonly used than for that than for this town. Bunhe, Ukraine might be appropriate instead. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

It does come from a surname, but the original German surname is actually Bunge, so "Bunhe" as a title doesn’t clash with anything. HappyWith (talk) 18:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Looking up on Google it looks like Bunhe does mostly refer to the city in Ukraine. In Google Scholar this is not the case. I guess just "Bunhe" can be used and we can later determine whether it is the primary topic or not. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 19:48, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom, and per Mzajac and Super Dromaeosaurus. BD2412 T 01:54, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.