Talk:Bozbash

About the origin

@Seraphim System: @Qahramani44: I reverted the content of this article after I saw that someone simply changed it to Armenian, even though it's obvious that it was "Azerbaijani" for a long time and that the first sentence doesn't even make sense with Armenian, as it becomes: "Bozbash (Azerbaijani: bozbaş "grey head" or "grey meal") is an Armenian[citation needed] mutton soup which is also popular in Georgia, Armenia and Iran". That way it leaves Azerbaijan totally out. Wikaviani, who is pushing his own anti-Turkic POV in articles that are especially related with Azerbaijan and/or Azerbaijanis, acussed me of POV pushing and that i'm a "cross-article disruptive editor"! @Wikaviani: You better stop pushing your own obvious POV pushing by using false accusations againt me as pretext, or I will start reporting this. Akocsg (talk) 12:33, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

@Akocsg: Please be my guest, go ahead and report me, i would welcome the eye of an admin and this will put a spot of light on your « contributions » on Wikipedia too. Regards.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:15, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with my contributions, and what they have to do with the topic. The point is you used a misleading edit summary, even though it is obviously false and denigrative, while I simply reinstated original content. Akocsg (talk) 16:16, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

@Akocsg: « Wikaviani, who is pushing his own anti-Turkic POV in articles that are especially related with Azerbaijan and/or Azerbaijanis » Nope, unlike you, i only try to go with what sources say, i don’t have any agenda here. As to this Azerbaijani or Armenian soup, i was not able to find any mention of it in the cited source : « A Dictionary of Food and Nutrition », please provide an inline citation supporting an Azerbaijani origin of this food, or any mention of its origin should be removed.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 17:35, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Again, all I did was revert to its original state. I'm not the one claiming any origin. Akocsg (talk) 23:14, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

removed place of origin, until a reliable source is found.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:20, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Etymology

Only because two components of the word are Turkic-sounding, Wikipedia cannot state in the introductory sentence that "bozbash is a word of Azeri Turkish origin". Boz (بز) means "lamb" in Persian, for your information. What does "gray head" in Turkish have to do with a lamb meat stew?! Likewise, in Armenian this stew has an authentic name, garnapoor, translated from Armenian as "lamb soup".98.231.157.169 (talk) 21:47, 4 October 2019 (UTC)Davidian

“Bozbash is the most common Armenian meat soup of fatty lamb stew with a variety of vegetables and fruits, slightly acidified.” Source: Villiam Pokhlebkin, National Cuisines of our Peoples. Moscow, Centerpolygraph Press, 2004, p. 172.98.231.157.169 (talk) 21:52, 4 October 2019 (UTC)Davidian

Iranian or Azerbaijani cuisine

The word "Bozbash" is of Azerbaijani origin. However, its roots don't necessarily make it an Azerbaijani dish, just as it doesn't make it an Iranian dish. If more evidence is shared indicating that the specific dish named Bozbash is an Iranian dish ( not any other similar dish, specifically Bozbash), the confusion can be resolved. Otherwise, attributing it to a cuisine without proper evidence would be baseless. I mean even the etymology is not Iranic. We definetly need more precise sources for clarification Leamsezadah (talk) 17:08, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Logic makes no sense. Azerbaijan has an Iranian name, does that make it an Iranian country? Or perhaps the Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic an Armenian country? Yes I know it sounds silly, but that is what logic you're using, loan words from other languages are not exactly uncommon. Anyways, in Wikipedia we follow WP:RS, not our own opinions/deductions - you should be well aware of this by now. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:13, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

If you read carefully, I'd say stating that etymology alone is insufficient for determining the origin. My friend, the issue is that there isn't any shared source specifically claiming that the dish with the specific name "Bozbaş" belongs to Iranian cuisine. In one source, there might be mention of an Iranian dish resembling Bozbaş, but it doesn't specify the origin of the particular dish called Bozbaş. If there's something I missed, I'd appreciate it if you could point it out.

Under this conditions i think it is better to remove iranian or azerbaijani at all and just keeping "a dish" Leamsezadah (talk) 17:18, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

So why mention that faulty logic at all? Anyways, you should read what I said as well; Anyways, in Wikipedia we follow WP:RS, not our own opinions/deductions - you should be well aware of this by now.

Let's see what the cited Iranica source says; BOZBĀŠ, Azeri Turkish name for an Iranian dish usually called ābgūšt-e sabzī HistoryofIran (talk) 17:23, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

"Let's see what the cited Iranica source says; BOZBĀŠ, Azeri Turkish name for an Iranian dish usually called ābgūšt-e sabzī. "

Iranian food "ābgūšt-e sabzī", there is no cuisine sitation about specifically Bozbash. For ābgūšt-e sabzī yes, the source claims it is an Iranian dish. However for bozbash says it is azeei turkish name of "Iranian dish usually called ābgūšt-e sabzī". This article is about Bozbash not about ābgūšt-e sabzī. Leamsezadah (talk) 17:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

What? I am sorry, but this is extremely simple English. I would advise you to read it a few times. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Is this article about iranian dish ābgūšt-e sabzī or Bozbash? About which one? Leamsezadah (talk) 17:31, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

If it is about ābgūšt-e sabzī, why azerbaijani variation name Bozbash is used? Leamsezadah (talk) 17:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

They're the same dish. A dish can have names in more than one language...

Why is "Bozbash" used? I dunno, only the author and Iranica can answer that. Probably because it's the more popular name in English. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:34, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

similar foods have many variations with little differences. It seems ābgūšt-e sabzī and bozbash situation is like that too. If this article is not directly about Azerbaijani version of ābgūšt-e sabzī, it is kinda illogical to use regional variation name for ābgūšt-e sabzī. It would better to be changed to ābgūšt-e sabzī. Otherwise this is the azerbaijani name of the food, not general one Leamsezadah (talk) 17:37, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

A dish can have variations from city to city and even from household to household. However, it's ultimately still the same dish, as per the source. We should stick to whatever name's more common, per WP:COMMONNAME. HistoryofIran (talk) 18:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Bozbash: Celebrating the Distinctiveness of Azerbaijani Cuisine

Dear Wikipedia editors,

I understand your interest in linking Azerbaijani cuisine to Iranian roots, but it is important to recognize that Azerbaijan is its own country with a unique history, culture, and culinary tradition. While Azerbaijan was historically under Persian rule and shares some culinary similarities, modern Azerbaijani cuisine has developed independently for over 200 years, becoming distinct and unique.

Food should not be confined to its historical origins; it evolves and diversifies, adding to the rich tapestry of global cuisine. For instance, bozbash holds a special place in my heart as my grandmother often prepared it for me. It was the last meal she made before her passing, and it symbolizes more than just a recipe—it represents heritage and memory. Note, I am a Lezgin, northern Caucasian.

Please approach discussions on food and recipes with respect. Acknowledge the similarities between Azerbaijani and Iranian or Armenian dishes, but also recognize that Azerbaijani cuisine stands on its own. Our bozbash, for example, can be compared to the Hungarian goulash or various meat-based stews popular in Eastern Europe, reflecting Azerbaijan’s unique culinary evolution influenced by diverse regions.

Did we learn from the northern Caucasian or Uralic people to develop bozbash, or from Persians? The true historical origins of recipes are often complex and not easily traced. Unless there is credible historical research supporting specific claims, random edits linking Azerbaijani dishes solely to Iranian roots should be avoided. It could well be that Persians learned from the northern Caucasian people!

In the end, it is only a recipe, a food that we should celebrate for its unique contribution to our culinary world.

Respectfully, Nurlan NurlanLalaev (talk) 10:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Please read WP:FORUM, WP:JDLI, WP:SOAPBOX and then WP:RS, WP:POV WP:VER and WP:CITATION - with all due respect, your relation to the food, your opinion and your ethnic origins are completely irrelevant here - we follow what WP:RS says. I do not see a valid reason for removing sourced info, other than you not agreeing with it, which is not how it works on this site. I've reverted you - please reach a WP:CONSENSUS for your edits. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

thanks, I will improve my edit accordingly. Yet, the sources given on the current page are also not strong enough. NurlanLalaev (talk) 01:04, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

As I made in the new edit the note: we should refrain from using sources that are either Iranian scholar/person (where Ghanoonparvar, Mohammad R. is Iranian) or Azerbaijani scholar/person (in my citation Rahmanova, Leyla is Azerbaijani). The main source that we can verify, which is by David Bender (2014), he describes Bozbash as Armenian and Azerbaijani. There is no mention of Iran. It is cited in the article and see: https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780191752391.001.0001/acref-9780191752391-e-812?rskey=jpyQPy&result=1

I respect that Abghoost is a different food and might be related to Bozbash (or other way around), but I will also push back on your cited sources. If you find a non-Iranian scholar making the claim that Bozbash is Iranian, I will reconsider my position. Until then, we will exactly follow as you were saying, the guides of Wikipedia WP:RS and WP:VER.

Wikipedia's stance on biased sources is clear: they should be used with caution and should not be the primary source of information, especially when there is a potential conflict of interest. Neutrality is a core principle, and all sources should be scrutinized for potential bias. The goal is to provide accurate, balanced, and well-sourced information WP:RS#Biased or opinionated sources. Accordingly, in fact, Mohammad Ghanoonparvar (Iranian) and Leyla Rahmanova (Azerbaijani) are biased or opinionated sources.

Thanks for the discourse. I am learning a lot on how to do proper Wiki edits.

Best regards,

Nurlan NurlanLalaev (talk) 01:33, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Since it was first time I heard about Abgoosht, I googled it and also looked into how people make it on YouTube

Abgoosht: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USANrieGY68 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrotFp1KunE

Bozbash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnuWiEQrL1g

Abgoosht looks very very different from Bozbash, both the way it is cooked and the way you eat it. I would reach the conclusion that they are two distinct (but somewhat related) recipes.

You can say Abgoosht à la Bozbash, but that doesn't reduce Bozbash down to Abgoosht (or vice versa). I see a lot of Iranian webpages showing "Abgoosht Bozbash", which might even indicate that Abgoosht is inspired from Bozbash. For instance, Schnitzel Wiener Art (Schnitzel à la Vienna) is the Viennese version that has been adjusted. I am not a food scholar, but I am a scholar/scientist.

From what I understand, Abghoosht is more similar to our Piti (food). I would not take only a single source, here only Mohammad Ghanoonparvar to make the claim bozbash is similar to abghoosht. I think you need to provide more sources, ideally non-Iranian to show or discuss bozbash is Iranian or a food in Iran. It could well be a food in Iran because there are over 20 million Azerbaijanis living in Iran. Since it is a food prevalent in the Caucasus (Armenia and Azerbaijan), it is possible to have it in Iran too. So, following WP:RS I will continue finding more sources. If you find another source backing your claims (ideally , please show. I will follow up.

I love Iranian food, nothing against it. Just there is a common approach in Iran that people try to reduce Azerbaijan culture down to Iranian culture. As you try to protect your culture and history, so do I. I want to do it as objectively as possible. Thanks for the engagement. Take care. NurlanLalaev (talk) 03:37, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but your comment shows that you didn't really read the policies I linked at all. Please do, including WP:SYNTH too.

I love Iranian food, nothing against it. Just there is a common approach in Iran that people try to reduce Azerbaijan culture down to Iranian culture. As you try to protect your culture and history, so do I. I want to do it as objectively as possible.

Just going to entertain this one unsourced claim, WP:RS contradicts you heavily; [1] [2] [3]. And please don't put words in my mouth, I never stated such thing, thanks. HistoryofIran (talk) 14:36, 13 July 2024 (UTC)