Talk:Belchen

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Page moves

The page about the Black Forest mountain was moved from Belchen (Black Forest) to the base name because it is the primary topic, leaving behind a redirect which has overwritten the former disambiguation page. Disambiguation is now achieved by a hatnote. The Talk page conversation that led to this is now at Talk:Belchen (Black Forest)#Redirect to "Belchen System". Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:20, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, looks good. Eric ^talk 13:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Definite article in mountain names

Hi Bermicourt- Re mountain names: In English, we don't use a directly translated German formulation employing the definite article (e.g. The Everest, The Fuji, The Whitney). We tend to put "Mount" before the name, or, once the context is established, the name alone. As this might only be a niche topic specific to DE>EN translation, I wouldn't necessarily expect to find guidance here on WP; it's more of a standard English usage thing. But here's what I found just now: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mountains#Naming_conventions, Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Germany)#Group_A. Eric ^talk 03:29, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm an English speaker too (in fact I am English!) and, although I'm a translator, this is not a product of some mechanical translation. I agree that in English we would not talk about the Everest, the Fuji or the Whitney. In fact, I would never use "the" before most mountain names e.g. I don't say "I'm climbing the Snowdon" or "... the Ben Nevis" or use "the" with any British peaks I can think of apart from the Wrekin or the Saddle. But this is not a rigid rule in Europe and there are notable exceptions. The highest mountain in the Harz is usually called "the Brocken" whether by visiting British troops and tourists or in books and novels. Germany's highest mountain is commonly known as "the Zugspitze". Switzerland's iconic peaks are "the Matterhorn", "the Jungfrau" and "the Eiger". Looking at my Alpine mountaineering books and physical geography books, this seems common practice in all countries of that region, but with some very clear exceptions: there is no definite article where the mountain name starts with "Mont" or "Monte" e.g. Mont Blanc or Monte Zucchero; or where the definite article is part of the native name e.g. La Meije or Les Bans. It is not common to use the definite article where the name starts with "Piz" or "Pizzo" e.g. Piz Bernina or Pizzo Scalino. There are other peaks which are just always known without the article e.g. Vesuvius. So it appears to be a matter of custom and usage with some obvious rules of thumb to help us. Both "the Blauen" and "the Belchen" are supported by the literature, so I'm confident they're not wrong. BTW I would suggest that adding "Mount" to an otherwise standalone name is a North American practice. HTH. Bermicourt (talk) 08:46, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Actually I've notice you've made earlier changes to this article, a number of which are incorrect and show unfamiliarity with the subject matter. For example, the Central Uplands is the proper name of a geographical region within Germany, not a generic term. So forgive me if I just make one or two corrections. Bermicourt (talk) 09:00, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, I disagree, but I don't really care. The definite article jumps out to me as awkward, and I imagine that a panel of usage specialists would concur, but we ain't gonna find one of those on Wikipedia. I would guess that in most of the English-language material that you mention, the employment of "the" before mountain names has its origins in a direct translation and simply got replicated over the years, but of course I don't know that. I used to work as a translator, and also did corrections of translations for publication, and that "the" before Belchen just calls out to my red pen. As for the central uplands bit, I err on the side of toning down what I see as WP's excessive tendency to treat geographical regions with formal placenames; for example, I favor southern France (unlinked) over Southern France (wikilinked). Eric ^talk 12:39, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Interestingly the only instance I've come across of Belchen without the definite article was by a German author writing in English. The name Central Uplands is not my invention, but a term used by geographers. That's where I got it from. I guess the capitals are needed to make it clear that it's a specific region, not just a general term. In creating articles, I'm always careful to follow the sources. Of course, they don't always agree, in which case I try to work out the most common English form, etc. Bermicourt (talk) 16:45, 13 August 2021 (UTC)