Talk:Belchen (Black Forest)

Redirect to "Belchen System"

Hi Shhhnotsoloud- Did you discuss this redirect with others? I'm just curious, as I have spent a great deal of time in that Dreieck, with both Germans and Alsatians, speaking two languages plus two dialects, and don't remember ever hearing anyone call anything "Belchen" except the one mountain in the Black Forest. That said, I don't think en.wp must necessarily have a standalone article for the one mountain.

I never knew about the relationship described in the System article, unless my old German roommate brought it up and the memory has faded with the years, so I can't claim any great Belchen System scholarship. That article has some interesting info, though it was a bit confusing in its presentation. I tried to clarify the wording there. Eric ^talk 18:37, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Eric:. Hello. I didn't. The page wasn't formatted correctly for a disambiguation page so I changed it WP:BOLDly because there was nothing there that wasn't already at Belchen System. Perhaps Belchen (Black Forest) should be moved to the base name? Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 06:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Belchen System is also not formatted correctly for a disambiguation page. Moreover, it doesn't cover the Belchen Tunnel except as a "see also" link. It also doesn't mention other links called Belchen such as the nature reserve or the pass which are not part of the 'system'. Hence I've reverted the edit. Bermicourt (talk) 07:35, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Bermicourt: you reverted me edit with edit summary "This needs to remain a dab page". Please refer to WP:DAB and MOS:DAB. There is only one article that might otherwise be titled "Belchen" and that's Belchen (Black Forest). The other articles linked are either not known as "Belchen" or "Belchen" is a WP:Partial title match (or the article doesn't exist at all). Perhaps Belchen (Black Forest) should be moved to the base name? Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 07:57, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's quite true to say that "the other articles are ... not known as "Belchen". There are several online and book sources in English that use the name Belchen to refer to objects other than the Black Forest mountain. That said, I think the latter is the primary topic in English, so I agree we should move Belchen (Black Forest) to Belchen and then this just to Belchen (disambiguation). Did you want to set that up as a WP:MOVEREQ ? Bermicourt (talk) 09:41, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Bermicourt: the problem is that it doesn't say in any article that the other entries are known as "Belchen" alone (and Eric above hasn't heard it either). The pass has no article and is not a valid disambiguation page entry, and the nature reserve is a redirect to the same Belchen (Black Forest) article. So as far as I can see, "Belchen" is not ambiguous. How about a move of Belchen (Black Forest) to Belchen, with a hatnote such as "For other mountains containing the name "Belchen", see Belchen System? Remember that a disambiguation page is a list of articles that might otherwise be called "Belchen", not a list of things with "Belchen" in the title. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 16:19, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

That sounds right to me, though I admit I have no expertise in disambig protocols. Eric ^talk 20:20, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Shhhnotsoloud: I think we're talking at cross-purposes. You're right that there is no single article called "Belchen" apart from the Black Forest mountain. So I think we're all agreed that should be the primary topic for Belchen. But it's entirely normal for dab pages to include links to other articles that include Belchen in the name. At WP:DAB it states that "Disambiguation is required whenever, for a given word or phrase on which a reader might search, there is more than one existing Wikipedia article to which that word or phrase might be expected to lead..." So we're disambiguating words or phrases. Bermicourt (talk) 08:02, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

@Bermicourt: but WP:PTM: "A disambiguation page is not a search index. A link to an article title that merely contains part of the disambiguation page title, or a link that includes the page title in a longer proper name, where there is no significant risk of confusion between them, is considered a partial title match, and should not be included". And anyway, any disambiguation page would only repeat information already in the lead at Belchen System. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 18:17, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

You are obviously greatly exercised by this, so do what you suggest and let's move on to more important work. Bermicourt (talk) 18:38, 1 June 2021 (UTC)