Talk:Battle of Kosovo

RfC Should Muzaka and Jonima be included in the infobox?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is a consensus to exclude Muzaka and Jonima from the commanders and leaders section of the infobox. As several participants noted, infoboxes are meant to summaize key facts (MOS:INFOBOX); when its fields have the potential to become unwieldy, they should not be exhaustive lists, but highlight the most important examples. Those opposing exclusion produced sources showing that Muzaka, and to a lesser extent Jonima, were leaders of their own men, but they failed to refute (and did not seriously contest) the claim of the supporters, backed by a number of RS, that they were not top-level commanders but instead served under one of three most prominently mentioned in RS. Overall, a slight majority of participants and the balance of the sources and arguments found that neither man was a commander of sufficient prominence to merit inclusion in the infobox. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 22:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

---

Teodor II Muzaka and Dhimitër Jonima are listed in the infobox section "Commanders and leaders". Should they be listed there? --Azor (talk). 19:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Exclude. Per Template:Infobox military conflict, "When there is a large number of participants, it may be better to list only the three or four major groups on each side of the conflict». A wide range of sources explain the army to be led by Lazar; with Brankovic and Vukovic leading the respective right- and left wing. Malcom (p 64-65) writes: Lazar commanded the centre; Vuk Brankovic was on the right and all the foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under the Bosnian general." ie. Vlatko Vuković. It appears that Muzaka and Jonima are included solely based on the fact that certain sources mention their involvement, rather than because they played a leading role. Having the article's body go more in depth about the participants, like it already does, seems like the proper solution. --Azor (talk). 19:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Muzaka and Jonima are already included in the infobox, hence the question isn't correct. The question should be Should Muzaka and Jonima be excluded from the infobox?--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

They were never included as a result of consensus among editors, hence why I asked if they should stay there. --Azor (talk). 06:34, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose exclusion A figure is not included in the infobox because he was a "leader" in the battle, but because reliable sources include them in the list of notable figures who commanded troops in the battle. This is the case for Muzaka who is mentioned in many sources.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:12, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The infobox field "Leaders and Commanders" is exclusively for...leaders and commanders. Muzaka at best led a minor contingent, Jonima is not even confirmed. Khirurg (talk) 04:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose exclusion: Muzaka has been in the box for over two years, and various attempts have been made to remove those Albanians from an important Serbian battle. Modern politics do not get to determine what content is to be included or to be removed. One can just look at the history of this talk page, I think it gets pretty clear what is going on here. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:22, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Not a single source, or policy-based argument I see. "Over two years" means nothing when it was rammed in by brute-force edit-warring. You are correct though that "modern politics do not get to determine what content is to be included or to be removed". Sources do, and in this case there is very little to suggest these were "Leasers" or "Commanders" in the battle. What is a "Strong" oppose btw, does that count as 2 votes or something? Khirurg (talk) 04:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Since when is it up to you to judge whether a nobleman is a minor figure? ([1]) And who gives you the right to tell me how to formulate? AlexBachmann (talk) 18:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment Muzaka and Jonima are not descrbied as much as the Serbian leaders. The infobox is supposed to highlight important parts of the article. You could make the argument that Albanian aristocrats should be mentioned as a group, not individually. Senorangel (talk) 01:41, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Exclusion: Aside from the fact that this has been heavily discussed for months now with the same result, there are many sources which describe Jonima and Muzaka as leaders of the Albanian forces that they brought to the battle as part of the coalition. If WP:RS bibliography (and not just Albanian historiography) considers it important enough that they be mentioned as leaders in the Battle of Kosovo, then the article must reflect that, as RS bibliography dictates what is written in sources. Botushali (talk) 02:02, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support Exclusion There are no sources that describe Jonima and Muzaka as "Commanders" or "Leaders" in the battle, hence they have no place in the "Leaders and Commanders" field in the infobox. Jonima's participation in the battle is not even confirmed. But even for Muzaka, there are multiple sources that clearly contradict the assertion that he was a commander in the battle. For instance, even Noel Malcolm in Kosovo: A short history, p. 64-65 states: Lazar commanded the centre; "Vuk Brankovic was on the right and all the foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under the Bosnian general.". No mention of Muzaka or anyone else as a commander or leader. Then there is Dejan Djokić, A Concise History of Serbia, Cambridge University Press, 2023, "It is unlikely, as is sometimes suggested, that Lazar commanded a broad coalition that, in addition to his and Vuk Branković’s armies and reinforcements from Bosnia, included Albanians, Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians, Germans and Vlachs.". Khirurg (talk) 04:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Dejan Djokic denies the presence of other groups in general - that is a WP:FRINGE theory and therefore a very poor excerpt to try and use as evidence. On the other hand, Xhufi, Veremes, Elsie, Iseni and Petritsch, for example, all describe these Albanian lords as having been leaders of the Albanian forces they brought to the battle. Their quotes are already cited in the article. Perhaps they did not command the main battle lines, but they did lead the Albanian forces. That's a fact according to WP:RS bibliography and the general scholarly consensus. Botushali (talk) 06:03, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Dejan Djokic is a top notch scholarly source, one of the best in the area, and far better than any of the names you drop. Besides, I don't see a single quote in the article describing these two figures as leaders or commanders. . Khirurg (talk) 06:12, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  That's great, kudos to Djokic, but the scholarly consensus is not overturned by what a single author says. Sure, maybe it's a top notch source, but the excerpt used denies the presence of Albanians, Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians, Germans and Vlachs, and that is a fringe theory because we know Serbs were not the only Christians present.

  Here are just some of the quotes (not all, other quotes can be found cited in the article too):

  • ... Teodor Muzaka brought 'a large band of Albanians' to join Lazar's army, together with 'other Albanian lords'... Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: A Short History (1998). Muzaka is not an ordinary fighter here, he brought troops as a lord.
  • Lazar... and King Marko... and Theodore Musachi, the second-born of our family, and the other Lords of Albania united and set off for battle, which the Christians lost from the original chronicle of John Muzaka in 1515
  • ... is a historical fact that they were on the Serbian side against the Ottoman Empire in that cataclysmic battle of 1389 ( under Albanian counts Balsha and Jonima) Veremes, Thanos; Kophos, Euangelos, Kosovo: avoiding another Balkan war (1998).
  • ... Vlach contingents of Voyvode Mircea, the troops of Lazar's son-in-law Vuk Brankovic and Albanian forces under George Balsha and Demeter Jonima. Robert Elsie, Historical dictionary of Kosova (2004).
  • Two years later... Teodor Muzaka and Dhimitër Jonima fought in the battle of Kosovo... Genc Myftiu, Albania: a Patrimony of European Values Guide of Albanian History and Culture Heritage (2000)
  • sur les sept chefs de guerre de cette coalition, deux étaient albanais, Gjergj Balsha II et Dhimiter Jonima. Auraient aussi participé à cette bataille d'autres féodaux albanais, notamment Gjon Muzaka et Teodor Muzaka II... Bashkim Iseni, La question nationale en Europe du sud-est: genèse, émergence et développement de l'identité nationale albanaise au Kosovo et en Macédoine (2008)

  So, these men were leaders of principalities and brought their own forces to the battle. If WP:RS bibliography thinks its important enough to describe these men as leaders of the Albanians, then the article should reflect that. Botushali (talk) 06:42, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Only Muzaka has scholarly consensus of participating. Nobles such as Balsha has been explicitly denied to participate; "Albanian historians give them (Albanians in Lazars' army) a prominent place. (...) Albanian history books claim Gjergj Balsha, whom they treat as a purely Albanian figure, also took part, and this is almost certainly false. (Malcolm, p.61, 1998). I respectfully request that editors refrain from selectively choosing sources and instead form their opinions on the basis of overall RS on this battle. --Azor (talk). 07:12, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  That’s precisely why Balsha is not mentioned in the article. Nobody, not even Malcolm, has denied Muzaka or Jonima. Botushali (talk) 07:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  By studying the first source you used by Malcolm, that quote you used is not Malcolm's own words. He is simply quoting without necessarily agreeing with it. What Malcolm actually says is: "the main components of Lazar's force were probably his own men, Vuk Brankovic's, and those of the Bosnian general, Vlatko Vukovic.". As I have said, leave cherry picking out of this. This is not how you win support for your view. --Azor (talk). 09:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, Malcolm discusses Muzaka’s chronicle, which he says is most likely true. Now, how does the quote you pulled have anything to do with Muzaka and Jonima not being present and not being leaders of the Albanian forces? Nobody is saying that Muzaka and Jonima were as instrumental in the army composition as Lazar, Vuk or Vlatko - but RS bibliography still considers them to be noteworthy enough to be mentioned as leaders, as shown above. They are not ordinary participants, they were the leaders of principalities who gathered a number of men to join the Christian forces. Botushali (talk) 09:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Given your understanding of the primary groups being Lazar, Vuk, and Vlatko, I recommend that you review the quote from the Military conflict infobox. It may provide insight into why Wikipedia refrain from including each and every alleged leader in the infobox. --Azor (talk). 09:55, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Thing is, these leaders are not alleged. As Maleschreiber stated above: A figure is not included in the infobox because he was a "leader" in the battle, but because reliable sources include them in the list of notable figures who commanded troops in the battle.

  Also, as per Template:Infobox military conflict: commander1/commander2/commander3 – optional – the commanders of the military forces involved. For battles, this should include military commanders (and other officers as necessary). Botushali (talk) 11:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  None of the sources you have presented back the claim that they were commanders. They mention participation, but that's a totally different thing from being a commander. Being the head of a "large band" does not make one a "commander" of the battle. Thank you for confirming what I thought all along, that you don't have sources describing these individuals as commanders. Khirurg (talk) 16:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Again, as per Template:Infobox military conflict: commander1/commander2/commander3 – optional – the commanders of the military forces involved. For battles, this should include military commanders (and other officers as necessary). Botushali (talk) 22:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Again, not a single source describing these individuals as "commanders" or even "leaders". Khirurg (talk) 00:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support Exclusion It has already been mentioned that an infobox should contain three or four major groups on each side of the conflict. In addition to Malcom, Angelov also only mentions Lazar, Vuk and Vlatko as commanders and leaders.[1] Muzaka and Jonima were leaders of their own units, but an absence of them being widely referred to as commanders or leaders would suggest that they didn't hold major leadership positions or were not seen as equal to Vuk or Vlatko. In modern terms, Lazar would be considered a Field marshal, Vuk and Vlatko would be considered General officers and Muzaka and Jonima considered Brigadiers. Given that Muzaka and Jonima aren't mentioned as significant leaders and given the limitations set out in the military conflict infobox, they should be removed from the infobox. ElderZamzam (talk) 11:47, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

An overview of some RS already cited in the article:

• Indeed, King Tvrtko of Bosnia (who had sent troops to help Tzar Lazar under Vlatko Vuković) even boasted that he had won the Battle of Kosovo (Humphreys, 2013, p.64) Mentions: Lazar, Vlatko, Brankovic.
• The main Christian force was the Serbian contingent led by Prince Lazar (Cox, 2002, p.29) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic (later)
• Prince Lazar and Vuk Brankovic together with auxiliary troops sent by King Tvrtko of Bosnia faced Sultan Murad (Emmert, 1991, p.3). Mentions: Lazar, Vlatko, Brankovic.
• Apart from the predominantly Serbian army, there were troops sent by Trvko and a squadron led by Ban John. (Budak, 2001, 287) Mentions indirectly Lazar and Brankovic (Serbian army) and Vlatko. Including Ban John.
• Lazar commanded the centre; "Vuk Brankovic was on the right and all the foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under the Bosnian general. (Malcolm, 1998, p. 64-65). Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic, Vukovic. Nonetheless, Muzaka is also mentioned, but in contrast to the others, is given no military authority.
• The main characters are Prince Lazar and Brankovic (Duijzings, 2000, p.185) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic
• Lazar managed to bring his own forces together with those of his son-in-law, Vuk Brankovic, Trvrtko of Bosnia and other powerful Serbian and Croat leaders (Matthias, 1987, p.12) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic, Trvtko
• At the end of the battle (..) the remnants of the Serbian (Lazar's and Brankovic's) and Bosnian (Vlatko Vukovic's) troops withdrew. (Fine, 1994, p.410) Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these leaders. (p.409) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic and Vukovic. :--Azor (talk). 22:36, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

None of these quotes prove that either Muzaka or Jonima were not leaders of the Albanian forces. They were independent rulers of principalities who mustered a number of men and joined the coalition. They weren't regular officers or footmen. Botushali (talk) 22:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

This multitude of sources shows that the only commanders of the battle on the Serbian side were Lazar, Brankovic, and Vukovic. That's it. Khirurg (talk) 00:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

The last quote deliberately says the army was split in three contingents under command of three leaders (Lazar, Brankovic and Vukovic). There were no more than three leaders in that battle. This is so obvious to be a case of WP:IDHT. --Azor (talk). 08:07, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Exclusion They are confirmed to have played a role in the battle. There are plenty of battles with many commanders listed. This does not have to be an exception. Lazar is already listed a level above them, so there is really no reason whatsoever to remove them. Çerçok (talk) 00:52, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support Exclusion While there is factual information that the Christian coalition was made up of three main contingents led by Lazar, Branković and Vuković, the scarcity of primary sources contemporary with the battle and the little information provided by later sources have never enabled historians to assert that Muzaka or Jonima had a leading role within this coalition. Nor is there any certainty that the latter was even present.

As I said in the previous RfC, while other allied contingents, including mercenaries or troops from other neighbouring kingdoms and principalities, were involved, there is no evidence that any Albanian or Hungarian lord headed his troops at the same level as the Serbian and Bosnian princes. Muzaka and Jonima (if the latter was indeed present) were most likely led by Lazar, as stated in the French book L'Europe et l’Islam : Quinze siècles d’histoire, from Laurens, Tolan and Veinstein (2009), page 134:

Le côté serbe était représenté par trois éléments au moins : le contingent du knez Lazar Hrebeljanović qui régnait alors sur la Serbie centrale et une partie du Kosovo oriental et dont l’armée incluait des éléments hongrois et albanais ; celui de Vuk Branković qui contrôlait la plus grande partie du Kosovo ; enfin, comme à Bileća, les troupes bosniaques de Tvertko étaient commandées par Vlatko Vuković.

Which translates to:

The Serbian side was represented by at least three elements: the contingent of the knez Lazar Hrebeljanović, who ruled central Serbia and part of eastern Kosovo at the time, and whose army included Hungarian and Albanian elements; that of Vuk Branković, who controlled most of Kosovo; finally, like in Bileća, Tvertko's Bosnian troops were commanded by Vlatko Vuković.

With this in mind, and considering the information from Template:Infobox military conflict which states that "When there is a large number of participants, it may be better to list only the three or four major groups on each side of the conflict", it seems pretty clear that Muzaka and Jonima should not appear in the infobox. Krisitor (talk) 09:13, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Exclude. Most sources, if not all, depict Lazar joining the battle alongside his allies Branković and Vuković from the Kingdom of Bosnia. While there is limited information on participants like Muzaka in Lazar's army, it is evident that they were not explicitly considered leaders in the battle. Although they were nobles, it appears they operated under the command of either Branković or Vuković. Notably, the infobox does not exclude them; they are already listed in the "Allied contingents" note along with other suggested ethnic groups participating. To address this, a potential solution could involve incorporating them into the note, like for example: "Albanians (such as Muzaka and Jonima), Bulgarians (...)." Ranko Nikolić (talk) 21:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I believe that's an excellent middle ground. This way, their names will be featured in the infobox, though in a separate section from Lazar, Brankovic, and Vukovic. In the future, if editors deem it necessary to provide more visibility to nobles from the seven other ethnic groups in Lazar's army, the current "Allied contingent" note can serve as a suitable space for their inclusion without the risk of disrupting the overall functionality of the infobox.

Sorry for the ping @Senorangel, but you were one of the few to provide a solution in this entire discussion, do you mind sharing your opinion on this one? --Azor (talk). 11:14, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Ideally the article itself should describe how important Muzaka and Jonima were to the Albanian contingent. And how important Albanian and other ethnic armies were to the entire coalition effort. From there, it would form a basis for what the infobox mentions. I did not see that many details written about Muzaka and Jonima in the article, although there are many references indicated. A footnote for whatever ends up in the infobox could be the appropriate tool, depending on what more, if any, can be said about Muzaka, Jonima, and other allies in the body of the article. Senorangel (talk) 03:08, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Exclude. Minor commanders should not be mentioned alongside three undisputed army leaders. 109.245.33.229 (talk) 13:30, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

An IP showing up of nowhere. Interesting. AlexBachmann (talk) 13:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose exclusion. there are various RS which state they were apart of the battle. Considering the significance of this battle for the life of the medieval prince and ruler Teodor Muzaka, in the fact that he was slain here, it is not just that he is excluded. Durraz0 (talk) 13:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

A (short-term) solution: As previously suggested, the approach of allowing their inclusion within the infobox while designating a separate location from the Commander section appears to be a fair solution. The footnote can serve as a temporary place for participants with limited information, allowing for their potential incorporation into the commander section as additional details gradually improve in the article over time. Per WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS; it is often better to accept a less-than-perfect compromise—with the understanding that the page is gradually improving—than to try to fight to implement a particular preferred version immediately. This approach extends to all participants, like for example Ban John, whose role as a "squadron leader" in Lazar's army is currently only found in a single source. --Azor (talk). 16:29, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Ban John cannot be compared to Muzaka or Jonima (but especially Muzaka) who are discussed as leaders of the Albanian forces. They're not petty nobles, they are rulers of their own principalities. Botushali (talk) 00:16, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your passion in this discussion, but assuming that Muzaka is more fitting for that section than John is not something to automatically conclude. Presently, the best information we have on those two includes:

• Malcolm has verified Muzaka's participation, stating that he likely brought men with him. However, this verification doesn't attribute any military authority to Muzaka in the battle or provide any other explanation of his role in the battle.
• As for John of Palisna, there is a solitary source mentioning him leading a squadron in the battle. While this source attributes military authority to him, it is currently the only one mentioning this individual.

This is precisely why the temporary solution aims to provide us with the time needed to gradually enhance the article's details, as it's possible that there are additional sources available for Muzaka, Jonima, John, or other participants. That’s also why this RfC should keep going, regardless of the temporary movement within the infobox. --Azor (talk). 16:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

There are no "temporary solutions" here. You have initiated an RfC regarding the matter, so await the result and then changes can be made.

In regards to your first point, I have not "automatically concluded" that Muzaka is more fitting than John, that matter was concluded by WP:RS sources. I do not know if you are ignoring the dozen sources regarding Muzaka and Jonima on purpose or if you are legitimately that unaware of information that is currently on the article, but there are 12 sources on the article that mention Muzaka and Jonima as participants, many of them describing them as leaders of the Albanians. Malcolm is not on his own. The single source that mentions John of Palisna is indeed solitary and is the only one describing him as a leader compared to the 12 for Muzaka and Jonima collectively.

Muzaka and Jonima are listed under the "Leaders" subsection of the "Commanders and Leaders" part of the infobox. It's fitting, WP:RS sources describe them as leaders of the Albanian forces. Perhaps they did not command the main battle lines, but they are still considered leaders, which satisfies this section of Template:infobox military conflict (the same template which you have referred to multiple times to support your point): commander1/commander2/commander3 – optional – the commanders of the military forces involved. For battles, this should include military commanders (and other officers as necessary). Botushali (talk) 23:13, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose exclusion: no Wikipedia policies and guidelines, nor reliable sources have been porvided to justify the removal of those figures from the infobox, so far I can only see unfounded personal opinions. Teodor II Muzaka and Dhimitër Jonima ruled over independent Albanian Principalities, and Albanian forces of the Christian army were led by them in this battle. They were among the major historical figures of the battle, and Teodor II Muzaka even died fighting there. Those are historical facts documentend in medieval sources, and supported in modern scholarship. Editors should provide reasonable arguments based on reliable sources for that removal. – Βατο (talk) 12:31, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support Exclusion I am confused on why we exclusively highlight these Albanian nobles in the context of this battle, overlooking mentions of figures like Ban John, who is said to have brought men from Croatian lands to join Lazar. What about the nobles from the seven other ethnic groups said to participate in Lazar’s army? Where do we draw the line to whom we consider «leaders»? The infobox is designed for quick fact-checking, and I propose we draw the line at Lazar, Brankovic and Vukovic - just like overall RS do. Soundwaweserb (talk) 20:18, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support Exclusion Only three Commanders and Leaders are mentioned by every single source: Lazar, Vuk Branković and Vlatko Vuković. If Jonima and Muzaka were present they were under Vuković with the other foreign contingents. “The foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under Vlatko Vuković.” (Malcolm 64-65) The fact that their presence is disputed, or not even mentioned, should exclude them from the Commanders and Leaders section of the infobox. Aeengath (talk) 14:49, 27 November 2023 (UTC) edited Aeengath (talk) 17:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Exclusion: There are enough reliable sources to keep them in the infobox.HokutoKen (talk) 15:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support Exclusion: A preponderous of reliable sources are required to retain this (evidently quite controversial) assertion, and the quantity of said sources is clearly not sufficient to warrant making such a claim (in WP:WIKIVOICE, no less). Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 03:19, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I've requested closure for this at Wikipedia:Closure requests. --Azor (talk) 22:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.