Talk:Andriy Melnyk (diplomat)

Could someone revert the latest changes? Vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.102.231.227 (talk) 20:44, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

You could have even done that yourself --Itu (talk) 10:59, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

>"Andriy Melnyk was born in 1975 in Lviv, Ukrainian SSR, to jewish parents.[2]>"<

http://www.rbc.ua/ukr/news/poroshenko-naznachil-melnika-poslom-ukrainy-v-germanii-19122014174800

There is nothing to be found in the source given on the claim that he had Jewish parents! Other source/evidence - or delete! --81.20.127.2 (talk) 08:33, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Stepan Bandera flower laying claims; essential information for this Wikipedia article to have or just random Nazi accusations to help Russian war efforts?

Russia is using the pretext of denazification to justify its current invasion of Ukraine and and simultaneously in the English language Wikipedia page of the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany a number of editors are trying to link the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany to nazism. This don't look like a coincidence to me. Let's not turn this Wikipedia article into a Wikipedia:Attack page and let's not put in information about any Stepan Bandera flowers claim until we are sure it is not put into the article just to justify a Russian military invasion into Ukraine. Besides per Wikipedia:NOTDIARY; Wikipedia is not here to chronological write down people's daily lives.

Also (see WP:BLPSTYLE) we (decent Wikipedia editors) in Wikipedia articles do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources. So trying to make ambassador Melnyk look like a neo-nazi is not tolerable on Wikipedia unless Melnyk is commonly described as a neo-nazi. Also Wikipedia an article should have neutral tone. Inserted into this article claims that rely on guilt by association ("he likes Stepan Bandera so he approves everything Bandera ever did and ever wanted") should be deleted (see Wikipedia:BLPBALANCE). Unless there are reliable sources who explain Melnyk's opinions on Bandera and Bandera's ideas any mention of Bandera in this article are best avoided unless you are only interested in trying to smear Melnyk....

If you want to insert into this Wikipedia page anything involving Stepan Bandera flower laying claims; do explain here why that would be essential information for this Wikipedia article to have. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 13:20, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

We bring this line back, because as this mod called "Yulia Romero" is biased, you can view her wiki page. For Example: OSCE said, that the presidental election of yanukovich was democratic. On her page you have false statements, that his election was not democratical.

I will return the line and ignore this biased mod.

The line was long ago here on wikipedia, I just expanded that Stephan Bandera was an ally of Nazi-germany, what you can read in the source.

Since he is an ambassador in germany, it is a big scandal to lay flowers on a nazi collaborator. It also shows, that ukraine tolerance such persons as their representator and shows their deep problem with fashism in their politics.

Please stop doing vandalism here. -- 77.190.34.247 (talk) 16:14, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I have been a respected Wikipedia editor for 16 years and you have not even the gust to make your own profile. On my profile page I am not saying that the the 2010 Ukrainian presidential election was undemocratic; I am saying that the actions of Yanukovich as president were undemocratic.

The sources given for the flower laying do not say that Melnyk sees Bandera as a nazi collaborator. It also does not state how his supervisors reacted to his actions. Hence from this flower laying we can not conclude that ukraine tolerance such persons as their representator and and it certainly does not show their deep problem with fashism in their politics. For serious claims we need serious reliable sources on Wikipedia. Have you actually read Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons? It clearly states "it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment". Do you seriously think that it with not be harmful for ambassadors Melnyk to be associated with neo-nazism while not giving information in his Wikipedia article what he thinks of neo-nazism? As long as Melnyk's personal opinion of Bandera is not in this Wikipedia article that flower laying can not be in the article. So instead of looking like an annoying 9 year old boy 77.190.34.247; go start doing the work and find out by using respected unbiased sources what Melnyk thinks about Stepan Bandera. Wikipedia is a neutral point of view encyclopedia for giving people information; it is not for trying to convince people of alleged "deep problem with fashism in Ukrainian politics" by trying to make ambassador Melnyk look like a neo-nazi. Wikipedia is non-political. It is not for shaping opinions. If you're here for some self invented crusade against alleged "deep problem with fashism in Ukrainian politics" Wikipedia is not the place for you.

The "argument" that because information was in the article for a long time is utter nonsense. Just because previously in this article Wikipedia guidelines were not properly implemented does not mean they should not be properly implemented. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 12:56, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

On a Google search "Botschafter"+"Bandera"+"Held" I could only find sources that say Melnyk called Bandera "our hero" but these sources do not say why Melnyk thought that. In my opinion it still does more harm then good to mention the flower laying. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 13:46, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Like you said, Melnyk sees Bandera as a hero. It is not your job to judge, if a information does harm or not. So I edited it back. The source, which was needed, you gave yourself.

The german wikipedia article about melnyk even expanded a whole paragraphe about this flower laying.

First of all you should think about your thought and your contradictionary feelings. I would recommend to stop editing before you have done it. --77.185.102.28 (talk) 22:38, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

The passage in the Biography section about flowers at the grave of Bandera is currently worded to suggest (without openly saying) that Ambassador Melnyk approves of Bandera's collaboration with the Nazis. The cited sources are:

• A tweet, purportedly from Melnyk (do we know for sure?), apparently showing Melnyk with Bandera's son-in-law at Bandera's grave, which is decked with Ukrainian flags

and

• An article from the Times of Israel about hundreds of Ukrainian nationalists commemorating Bandera's birthday. It does not mention Melnyk.

I wonder whether that is adequate evidence to warrant inclusion of the passage at all. Both User:Yulia Romero and I have removed it (stating reasons) in the past, and contributors without accounts have restored it – describing its removal as vandalism. The diplomatic wisdom of Melnyk's visit to the Bandera grave has been the subject of public comment, not least from the German Ministry for Foreign Affairs (U.S. analogue: Department of State) in reply to the tweet mentioned above, so it isn't an entirely trivial matter. On the other hand, if the invocation of Nazi collaboration were to stand in the article, it might need more nuance, since it is at least plausible that Bandera was, and Melnyk is, attracted more to the prospect of "shaking off the Russian yoke" than to any aspect of Nazi ideology. An intermediate solution might be just to delete the words "and Nazi collaborator", retaining the link to the Stepan Bandera article, which has more detail.

My question: Does (or how might) the passage about Melnyk's flowers meet the requirements for inclusion in an article about a living person?

Guidance, anyone, please? Consensus?

Frans Fowler (talk) 13:28, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

The source is not adequate to verify the statement without WP:SYN. Further, any reinstatement requires multiple RS that fixes this issue per WP:PUBLICFIGURE, but also should obtain consensus to do so. Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:54, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for showing understanding, that this act of Mr. Melnyk is worth to mention and should stay in the article. As I understand, there is a conflict about how much the article should mention who Stephan Bandera was. I think, it should be mention who he was and not just a link to his article. Since Stephan Bandera is not somebody who is well-known in our western culture, there should be some first information who this person was and not just the link to his own article. It is not the same like to mention, "somebody laid flowers on Hitlers grave" (if there were one). Everybody would directly understand how controversial this act would be and there wouldn't be any need to mention in some words, who hitler was, since everybody know him.

It is important to mention, that he was an ukrainian nationalist, since this is how Melnyk sees him. But it is also important who this person was and that is not some simple patriotic act. I would even suggest and expand the line, that the grave is in germany. Then it would even underline more, why that is not a simple act, honoring a nazi collaborator in germany!

It is not suggesting, that Mr. Melnyk approves what Bandera did. That is a maliciously interpretation and the wording does not back up such an interpretation. But there are sources where you can read, that Mr Melnyk said, that "Bandera is our hero". This would suggest, that he approves, what Bandera did. We can also put those words into the article, if you want, but this would be indeed more controversial.

So I suggest maybe to expand the current line and to mention, that the grave is in germany.

--77.182.148.153 (talk) 17:28, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Please see remarks by Morbidthoughts at 21:54 on 4 May 2022 (above) ---- Frans Fowler (talk) 23:42, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand, why it should be a statement? It is just a description of what he did. The germany wikipedia article about Mr. Melnyk even expanded a whole paragraph about this. As far as I see it know, here on the english wikipedia article are some political forces, who wants to protect his image. It will be worthy to show this occurence to some media. --77.15.244.237 (talk) 05:53, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

You cannot combine sources to reach or imply a conclusion or "description" not explicitly stated by any of those sources. Just because the topic exists in the German wikipedia article does not mean it complies with the German wikipedia policies either.[1][2] Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:40, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

You want to say, if in this article https://www.swr.de/swr2/leben-und-gesellschaft/stepan-bandera-umstrittenes-symbol-fuer-den-kampf-um-die-ukrainische-unabhaengigkeit-100.html, there is explicit stated " Banderas Grab in München pilgerte auch schon Andrej Melnyk, der Botschafter der Ukraine in Deutschland." What literally translated means " Bandera's grave in Munich already made a pilgrimage to Andrej Melnyk, the ambassador of Ukraine in Germany." or here on page 45 https://dserver.bundestag.de/btp/18/18102.pdf#P.9775 says "Der Bundesregierung ist ein Tweet des ukrainischen Botschafters bekannt, in dem er über seinen Besuch am Grab Banderas berichtet. ", what means "The German Government is aware of a tweet by the Ukrainian in which he reports on his visit to Bandera's grave."

All those sources are not enough as evidence and not explicit enough, that Mr. Melnyk was there and laid flowers on Bandera's grave? Sorry, then you can delete 80% of the content of wikipedia. --77.179.118.231 (talk)

Your new sources are not important enough to establish WP:DUE. The first link is a public radio broadcast that has one only line about Melnik visiting the grave and doesn't explicitly describe Bandera as a Nazi collaborator while the second link is a government record, WP:BLPPRIMARY, citing sputniknews. *sarcasm* What a big deal! Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:11, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

First of all the second source has a direct answer by the german government! The person who stated the question citied "sputnik" source, neverertheless the german government still answered and said, they are aware, that Mr. Melnyk himself stated on twitter to be there!

Second, Stephen Bandera is well-known to be a Naz collaborator. You don't need for that any sources, look at the english article. If you want some other sources, we can find easily some other sources.

First of all we have to establish, that Mr. Melynk laid flowers there. The german government said it! You are bias and blocking a legitim sources, which is the german government themself! The source is from the german parlament! Please think about that, otherwise we have to call a higher instant in wikipedia.

In any case, that is here a political scandal and I called already some journalist (from ZDF/ARD) to see this. It can't be, that some random person is trying to establish his point of view like you do. --77.179.118.231 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 14:55, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

wikipedia is full of IP addresses trying to link the words Nazi and Ukrainian these days. I recently looked at some some sources about a similar question and merely want to point out that while it appears to be true that some elements of the UPA collaborated with the Germans, Bandera himself was in a German concentration camp at the time, so there seems to be an attempt to establish three degrees of Naziness here. And yes, he was a nationalist who wanted to get Ukraine out of the USSR, and that would be why he is considered a hero. Elinruby (talk) 03:50, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Bandera was in german concentration camp as "Ehrenhäftling", that means Prisoner of Honor. He had even a flat there. 1944 the germans let him out and should establish some ukraine nationalcommitee withe the Wehrmacht. --77.12.124.190 (talk) 16:40, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Stefan Rowecki was in "Ehrenhäftling" too. So we will called him nazi collaborator? And Bandera refused to work with the Germans after leaving prison. 178.36.14.73 (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Stepan Bandera cannot be Nazi ally, because he pronounced independent sovereign Ukraine in 1941, after Nazi invasion to USSR. But Nazi cannot accept this fact and close Bandera to jail "Sachsenhausen", in which he located to 1944 Lyaschuchenko (talk) 23:56, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Lyaschuchenko stop with your vandalism immediately! Everything was said already and the truth is stated in the article, period. The strength is in truth and you lost. --77.189.163.221 (talk)

Melnyk and alleged "Holocaust denial"

IP adress 108.7.192.142 labeled Melnyk a Holocaust denier, for which there was no citation provided. Only Melnyk's denial of Stepan Bandera's involvement in the Holocaust is evident and cited. 188.98.106.89 (talk) 18:26, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I have removed the label, we'd need incredibly strong sourcing for a label as contentious as "holocaust denier". Endwise (talk) 06:20, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Change topicname to Andrii Melnyk

According to official transliteration rules in Ukrainian: not be Andriy, but Andrii. Source : https://dmsu.gov.ua/services/transliteration.html Lyaschuchenko (talk) 13:23, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Shouldn't we use the Scientific transliteration of Cyrillic? Mhorg (talk) 17:41, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The official transliteration goes into people's passports and such, I don't think it is a good idea to use another transliteration (except for perhaps as a pronunciation tip at the beginning, but IPA does a better job at that). --Base (talk) 20:55, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Tentative support, but there are bound to be some pages on him on the embassy or ministry for foreign affairs pages to look up so that we can factor out the possibility that they use a non-standard transliteration. --Base (talk) 20:55, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

We need use official transliteration, because article about live politic, not historical. Example using on Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine. https://mfa.gov.ua/en/news/komentar-rechnika-mzs-ukrayini-olega-nikolenka-shchodo-ukrayinsko-polskih-vidnosin Lyaschuchenko (talk) 22:55, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

In Ukrainian, "y" mean "и", "i" - "i" , double "i" - "ій/ий" Lyaschuchenko (talk) 23:06, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The principle policy for article titles is WP:COMMONNAME, and English-language sources almost exclusively spell it "Andriy Melnyk". We are under no obligation to use any government's official system of transliteration. Endwise (talk) 03:58, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I took official source - Ukrainian government Lyaschuchenko (talk) 15:16, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

We have to use the WP:COMMONNAME in reliable English sources, such as academic Journals, books and major newspapers. JimRenge (talk) 16:24, 12 July 2022 (UTC)