Talk:Ala (demon)/Archive 1

I used the inline citations in the following cases:

1. debatable points (like in the Etymology section), or potentially so (like in the Origin section);
2. citations of verses and tales;
3. information from sources other than those listed in the References section.

The article is based on the latter sources, and all the information without inline citations comes from one or more of them. Since there is nothing debatable in it, I see no need to make several dozen inline citations and spread them through the article. The sources are in Serbian or Bulgarian: I suppose that this is the first text about Ala ever written in English (if I'm wrong, please let me know). VVVladimir 18:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Comments and copyedit requests

These notes only vaguely follow the order of the article, so if something doesn't make sense, or you can't find it, let me know and I'll try to clarify.

• Is there an appropriate infobox? I have no idea, but it seems like there should be, since most things have one. -Bbik^★

I doubt it. Not even mythology FA's (Orion, Kitsune) have one. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• Notes/References -- Yay for figuring out the refname bit! However, some dates had extra brackets because the "retrieved=" part does that automatically (though you need to put the dates in yyyy-mm-dd format there), even though you need to add it manually for other dates. I think I caught and fixed all of those. There's also a "language=" parameter, and while using it is by no means required, I personally feel it makes things easier, so have switched the "(In Serbian/Bulgarian)" bits to the parameter. If you'd rather not use it, switching it back should be fine, if minor. I also removed "Any information in the article not referenced by an inline citation, comes from one or more of the following sources:" from the references section as being redundant -- the whole point of the references section, when there's also a notes section, is to list general/overall references. If those sources weren't references, they shouldn't be in that section, but rather in a "Further reading" section. -Bbik^★
• I switched the HTML table for a wikitable (obviously). It takes up a bit more space in edit mode, but it's easier to read/edit, especially for those who aren't so great at HTML. -Bbik^★
• "...the name ala is used in Serbian and Macedonian, and hala in Bulgarian and in epics of W Serbia (plural Serbian: ale, Bulgarian: хали, Macedonian: али)..."

• The table makes this redundant, and I don't know that it should really be part of the sentence anyhow, rather than just a parenthetic (or foot-) note. It is an interesting point that some of the epic poetry uses hala instead of ala, though. Does it use the hali plural, too, or hale? Perhaps the table should add a line for that part. I'm thinking something along the lines of this would be appropriate.:

Ala or hala (Serbian/Macedonian: ала [ala]; Bulgarian: хала [hala])^{ref-table (with line about poetry) here} is a mythological creature recorded in folklore and beliefs of Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians.

Also, "epics of W Serbia" -- I assume you mean western Serbia? I'd spell out the whole word (especially in the intro!), otherwise it could just as easily be mistaken for a typo, and even if not, it disrupts the flow when reading. -Bbik^★

All right, but at the first instance of plural of ala, I'll put a NB about the plural form of it.

In western Serbia, ala played no role in beliefs of people at the time they started to be recorded (19th century), but is recorded in the old epics there. Why is it hala (plural: hale) rather than ala? Because that dialect retains the h-sound, contrarily to the dialects where ala is an "active" mythical creature (E & S Serbia). Also recorded in W Serbia is an expression Halo nesita!, used to reproach a gluttonous person, meaning: You, voracious ala! (halo – vocative of hala). Beside that, I found nothing else in W.S. concerning ala. The standard Serbian is predominantly h-retaining, but it uses ala rather than hala, being faithful to the dialects from which the word came. The word is well known to all Serbs, but, as I said, ala is folklorically active only in E & S Serbia (but, of course, as anywhere else, all that rural folklore is on the wane). VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• "...she is thus regarded as a dangerous and harmful creature..." was removed as redundant. Demons are bad/dangerous/harmful, bad weather is bad/dangerous/harmful, hail is bad/d/h, so that part's obvious. It also makes the sentence a run-on. :-p -Bbik^★
• "...but still, in a personal contact..." -- If people actually approach her, or during encounters, or? I'm a bit confused what you mean by that (based on the rest of the article is sounds like approaching her), but it sounds like it's also redundant. If not, go ahead and add it back in. -Bbik^★

You've done it ok. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• "Being in a good relationship with ala is very beneficial." -- My immediate reaction was to wonder why, but perhaps that's not a bad thing, since it is still just the intro. If you want to add a quick sentence to add a bit more detail there, though, I can't imagine it would hurt. -Bbik^★

 Done VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• "...and such a demon of the central Balkans pre-Slavic population..." -- "and a similar demon..."? "and a demon"? If you could clarify what exactly you're trying to say here, I can help reword it into more natural-sounding English, but I imagine one of the two suggestions would work. -Bbik^★

 Done VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• "In folk tales with humanlike ala..." -- In English, is ala used as both singular and plural? If not, that should be changed to either "with a humanlike ala" or "with humanlike ale". For that matter, sticking to either plural or singular throughout the entire article would be nice too, especially since there seem to be several distinct ale -- making it clear when something's general or only for a specific ala would be good. -Bbik^★

 Done Throughout the article, ala is exclusively singular. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Wherever there is ‘ala’ without an article, it has a general meaning. VVVladimir 21:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• "...principally the dragon. In the Christianized version, St. Elijah takes his [the slavic dragon, yes?] place – fighting with ala alone, or with the help of dragons." -- How does St. Elijah take the dragon's place if he sometimes fights with the help of dragons? Or are these different dragons, and the enemy Slavic dragon is a very specific one? The wiki page doesn't make it sound like there's only one "Slavic dragon", though perhaps only one type for a given area. Could that bit be clarified and/or reworded a bit? -Bbik^★

 Done Is it clear now? I also changed the link to Dragon – it's better. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• "The eagles too are locally regarded as defenders against ala, i.e. thunderstorm and hail." -- Do they stop the hail, or chase it off, or blow it away with their wings, or? I know it's still the intro, but a few more words there by way of clarification wouldn't hurt. -Bbik^★

 Done Better now? VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• "...all-Slavic..." -- pan-Slavic is the real term, assuming you meant it's found across all Slavic cultures. If not, then that'll need clarification too. -Bbik^★

Pan-Slavic is the word. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• "...expressions for certain kinds of bad weather (baba Marta, babini jarci, babine huke, etc.)..." -- Perhaps they should be translated? I'm most likely the wrong person to give an opinion here, because I don't know whether they actually should be, or whether it's just me wanting to know what things mean, even when they're nothing but examples. But for my own curiousity (even if it doesn't get added to the article), what do those mean? -Bbik^★

Maybe the plural kinds here is not correct (I corrected it now), because it all applies to the same weather phenomenon: intermittent spells of winter-like weather in the last week of March and the first half of April, which is all March in the Julian calendar. That's the meaning of the Marta part in baba Marta: mart is March, and the suffix –a is added to create a female name. As for the baba part, it actually means grandmother, and is also used to address or refer to an old woman (somewhat rude nowadays), but its ancient significance is stated in the article. And so, at those winter-like spells (sometimes it even snows), people say something like “Baba Marta is doing her job,” or “It is baba Marta visiting us,” etc (but it is more in a humorous, or semi-angry manner). Similar phrases can be heard, in fact, throughout the spring, whenever the weather worsens. Babini jarci means old woman's he-goats. As for huke, I don't know that that word is used in any context other than that phrase babine huke (old woman's huke). Huke should mean something like blowing on one's hands to warm them in cold weather, but I'm not sure here.

I hope I at least partially satisfied your curiosity, but putting something of this in the article might somewhat divert us from the subject, except maybe for the explanation when that bad weather happens. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Yup, that satisfies it wonderfully, thanks! And while no, you definitely don't need that whole explanation in the article, yes, giving a vague idea of what this "kind" of weather is would be good. Perhaps changing the sentence to read "for the bad weather of/in early spring", or something like that, would work? -Bbik^★ 19:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I assume this weather is fairly common? That little word really helps things flow better. If it's not the case, though, just remove it and the sentence still works. -Bbik^★ 21:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this weather happens every year in early spring, or even later in spring: after several sunshiny days, there come one or more windy, cloudy, rainy, and/or sometimes snowy days; these changes can happen, in fact, within a single day (e.g. sunshiny morning –> cold, cloudy afternoon). For example, in this blog, in the text dated 30 May 2007, the first sentence goes like this: “Baba Marta was doing her job in a big way,… that is, she caused that you cannot tell whether to wear an umbrella and jacket, or to dress something lighter.”

Babini jarci and babine huke (a.k.a. babini ukovi) are mostly applied to wintry days around the Annunciation, that is Благовести in Serbian (7 April, which is 25 March in the Julian calendar). Why babini jarci (baba’s he-goats)? An old woman (baba) drove her young he-goats on the Annunciation Day to a mountain to graze. When the wind and snow started, she, instead of returning home, addressed March mockingly, and stated not to be afraid of him (March), because her young he-goats are big enough to endure the bad weather that he can produce. That made March furious, so that he borrowed from February several freezing days with snow, and froze to death the baba and her he-goats in the mountain. VVVladimir 18:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

:D You're good at this satisfy-my-curiosity game! -Bbik^★ 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

You like it? Vlado^Talk

• The article should be moved to either Ala or Hala with the other name being a redirect -- having both spellings in the title is silly, that'd be like doing Meter (Metre) or Colour (Color). Pick a spelling and stick with it, for the title and throughout the article (Ala seems to be the obvious choice), mention the other(s) at the beginning and create redirects for them, and you'll be fine. -Bbik^★

Ala (Hala) was by no means my first choice. But both Ala and Hala are disambiguation pages, and also Ala (mythology) already exists (interestingly, a goddess from West Africa is called Ala). I would gladly change the name to something better – have you any suggestions? VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Ala (Igboo mythology) and Ala (Slavic mythology)? Probably not the best solution, but it's the best I can come up with at the moment. As for the rest of your responses, I'll try to get through some of them in the next couple days, but otherwise it's going to be at least a couple weeks until I can get online again, thanks to a school break. Leave a message on my talk page if you don't hear anything after that -- I'll probably have forgotten again, and I'd love to help you get this all fixed up. -Bbik^★ 21:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

It’s a pity that the title cannot be simply Ala. What do you think about Ala (demon)? I’d prefer something in the parentheses that wouldn’t visually overshadow the Ala part, but maybe it’s just a cavil of mine:)… Now I've learned that there are schools which have a break in September; I always thought that all schools begin in September. Well, if you read this before you get offline: have a merry holiday! VVVladimir 21:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• Be careful about overusing/repeating wikilinks. I removed a few in my copyeditting, but a ton more could probably go. Common words shouldn't be linked, words that don't (directly) aid in explaining the article shouldn't be linked, and the same page, even if given a different piped phrase, shouldn't be re-linked either. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)#Internal links for more. -Bbik^★

I removed some, and any of them you remove is all right with me. No one forces any reader to click a link he or she doesn't care for. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not so much an issue with forcing people to click the links or not, as it is a distraction. Lots of links don't usually bother me, but every so often all the extra color just makes it look funny, or makes it harder to read, or puts too much emphasis on obviously minor words. And I'm sure I'm not the only one, since I came across similar reasoning somewhere else quite a while ago when I was first learning the ropes. In any case, it's probably fine now, if I notice there's still a serious issue once I give it another quick copyedit, I'll let you know and/or fix it along with whatever other edits. -Bbik^★ 19:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• "While ala leads the clouds and hail to the fields with crops, the dragon fights with her in the sky." -- Removed as irrelevant to the etymology section. Perhaps it should've been moved somewhere else, but it seems to be covered several times already anyhow, so I think simply deleting it is fine. -Bbik^★

It's ok. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• The second paragraph of Etymology seems awkward, but I'm not quite sure what else to do about it. It all makes sense, and the information ties together, it just doesn't seem to flow properly. -Bbik^★

I somewhat changed it. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• The bullet points should be made into prose. I personally like bullet points (in some cases) and don't see why they're so taboo, but others will complain, and in this case prose would work fine too. And like I mentioned above, spell out words, don't abbreviate. In fact, skip the parentheses, too, just include it in the text (or leave it out entirely, people can just as easily click the links, since you put them there, to see where the regions are). -Bbik^★

 Done VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• "...louses her hair full of worms..." -- I'm confused. Are you trying to say that the stepdaughter put lice in her own hair? In the ala's hair? Or that the ala had lice, and the stepdaughter removed them? Or something else entirely? What do worms have to do with anything? -Bbik^★

With the verb to louse I translated the Serbian verb поиштaти, which means to pick lice from someone's hair (Webster's Third New International Dictionary, 1986, but it's obviously obsolete). The point is that the stepdaughter is kind and respectful to ala: she cleans ala's hut, makes up the fire in it, and pretends not to be aware that there are worms in ala's hair while lousing it, and that ala's livestock consists of owls, crows, wolves, foxes, badgers, etc. After some time, ala praises her service, tells her to choose among variously sized chests, and to go home. The girl chooses the smallest one, but later it turns out that it is full with gold. Learning that, the stepmother orders her daughter to go to ala, but coming there, the daughter is impudent, disobedient, shows disgust for ala, etc. To all of that, ala just keeps saying, "Good, good." When eventually asked to choose a chest, the daughter chooses the biggest, but when she and mother open it at their home, two snakes jump out of it, and blind them. (Vuk Karadžić)

I corrected the sentence - see if it is ok now, please. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

My first instinct would be to say that the translation should've resulted in "to delouse", but it's usually such a rare thing to talk about, especially in verb form, that for all I know "to louse" may well have the correct meaning, and it's just one of the lovely bizarre exception words English has. If nothing else, the main good stepdaughter-bad daughter bit is perfectly understandable, it was just the lousing bit that confused me. Declaring I don't have a large enough vocabulary is a fine explanation for me! I'll take a look at what you have now with the next general copyedit. -Bbik^★ 19:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

No one can justifiably declare that, just because of that little bit, the verb to louse :)... In the article, we should give a gist of the tale, that would exemplify this trait of ala's: she will not put up with any human talking to her about anything that makes her different from humans. The daughter does it every time: she roughly expresses her disgust with ala's hair, and her outrage with ala’s “livestock”. On the other hand, complying with that rule of ala’s, brings her favor, and good things with it. VVVladimir 18:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, looks like both "to louse" and "to delouse" mean the same thing, contradictory though that is. The couple times it came up, I switched it to "delouse" simply because that's what the prefix-expectation is when something's being removed. All the rest looks fine though. -Bbik^★ 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

• If this Slavic dragon is one-of-a-kind, and being referred to as "dragon", it needs to be capitalized as a name, regardless of whether it would be in Serbian/Macedonian/Bulgarian/whatever. Otherwise it needs to be changed to "the dragon". -Bbik^★

 Done VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• "A story from Banat, held to be true, says that before World War I, an exhausted ala in the form of a giant snake fell from the clouds on a road, and people gave her milk to help her recover." -- An interesting story, but what does it have to do with zmajeviti men? Should it be somewhere else instead? -Bbik^★

The zmajeviti men were common in the beliefs of the people in Banat, and the fallen ala lost her fight in the clouds with one of them (she is exhausted after the fight that she obviously lost). Check the correction I made in that story, please.

Regarding the zmajeviti, are you sure that this sentence is all right:

They look like ordinary people, except that they have little wings beneath their armpits; such men are always born at night, after his mother has been pregnant for twelve months. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Heh, well, technically, you're right, the grammar is wrong. Changing it to the grammatically correct "their mothers", however, just sounds weird, and may or may not also give the wrong connotation (That'd be the fault of the generally bad grammar that abounds in standard usage.) -- that each man has multiple mothers. I'll rephrase that with the copyedit so we can avoid the whole issue. -Bbik^★ 19:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Better? -Bbik^★ 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I missed this little question in this ocean. Yes, it's good: short & clear. Vlado^Talk

• Are the Serbian and Russian tales copied directly, or should I go back and copyedit them as well? -Bbik^★

That is my translation (as faithful as I could have made it so). You can copyedit them like anything else. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, will do. -Bbik^★ 19:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• Are there any pictures? An article about ala having only non-ala pictures is a bit strange. -Bbik^★

Regretably, I found none at all. Probably it's not easy to draw or paint something so vaguely and diversely described. We can consider the dragon's and Baba Yaga's pictures as ala's approximations (by some descriptions). But if we take that description from Gruža, than the first picture is just perfect :) VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

To update the previous statement, I recently, looking for something else, coincidentally came across a picture of ala in a book (the picture's caption says it's ala). It is a photograph of the relief carved above one of the mullioned paired windows of the Visoki Dečani monastery (see an image of the monastery), in Metohija (thus, deplorably, inaccessible for us, for now). Ala is snakelike with no limbs, sinuous, with a long snout, ears, and a goat-like beard. She is clutched by an eagle with spread wings above her, and stares wildly at the eagle with her snout open. In the right corner, there is an eagle nestling. My impression is that this is an allusion on St. George and the dragon: eagle -> St. George, ala -> dragon, nestling -> the saved girl. VVVladimir 20:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

There's some system or other where you can ask people in an area to take pictures for you if/when they have time; perhaps something like that could be done here? A picture of that relief would be really nice. -Bbik^★ 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll see. Vlado^Talk

I think WP:RP and WP:PMS were what I was thinking of, if you haven't found them already. -Bbik^★ 19:19, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I haven't come across these pages before. Maybe I'll put a request, I'll see. Vlado^Talk

I am trying to obtain some illustrations. Nikola 21:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

In any case, these nitpicks aside, I'd say you should definitely go for GA. It's a great, and definitely very informative, well-rounded, and complete article. -Bbik^★ 21:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Bbik! These aren't nitpicks, but very valuable insights in the prose of the article. VVVladimir 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll do at least a partial copyedit again tonight, whatever I don't get to I'll finish up when I get back (leave me a reminder note if I don't). Anything I didn't specifically reply to here is either fine now, or I'll leave more comments as needed after I check during the copyedit. -Bbik^★ 19:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Round 2

• I just noticed this part: NB: the Serbian forms have different endings in the grammatical cases other than the nominative, which is given here. Does that mean Bulgarian and Macedonian don't have cases, or do the words not change with the different cases? (It's also probably not necessary, but go ahead and leave it there, since it's in the references section anyhow.) -Bbik^★

Bulgarian and Macedonian have only small traces of the case declension of nouns, which sets them apart from other Slavic languages. I know that that note is not necessary, but I would like it to be there. VVVladimir

• The eagles too are locally regarded as defenders against ala...

Locally where? Is there one specific place, or several? Changing it to "sometimes regarded" would probably work better, but I'd actually suggest leaving "locally" or "sometimes" out entirely. It's already been noted how many different appearances ala has, it wouldn't require any mental leaps to realize that there are differences in other parts of her description, too. -Bbik^★

 Done VVVladimir

• The term baba is pan-Slavic, and was the name of a female divinity or demon; it is present in toponyms, customs, and beliefs.

There's something wrong with the tenses here, specifically the "was". Is it still the name of a demon/divinity (Baba Yaga makes me think it is, so I'm going to make it present.)? However, I don't get the impression it always refers to only one single creature at a time. If that actaully is the case, leave it as-is, if it can refer to multiple at once, make it plural. -Bbik^★

I see the baba (or better to write Baba) refered to in that sentence as a female demonic divinity – the mistress of the underworld (last paragraph of the article), a forebear of Baba Yaga, Baba Marta, and the suchlike. We should observe the word divinity; the ancient Baba might have been an important divinity (baba = grandmother: Mother Earth? She used to eat children: a folk memory of human sacrifices offered to her?), that was relegated in later religious changes. So, that divinity developed into a Proto-Slavic demon (not directly recorded), who later developed into Baba Yaga and others that are recorded in customs and beliefs… I rearranged the upper part of the Origin section, down to the sentence Traces of the beliefs in that demon… VVVladimir

Ah, that makes more sense. The paragraph sounds a lot better now, too, though there are a few more comments down in the next section. -Bbik^★ 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Not to be included, but for you, here are some toponyms with baba: Babin zub (baba’s tooth), Babin nos (baba’s nose) – peaks in eastern Serbia; Babin kuk (baba’s hip) – a hill near Dubrovnik; Babin do (baba’s valley) – a small valley near Sarajevo; Baba – a peak in Slovenia, and the name of two mountains in Macedonia, and one in Herzegovina, the peak of which is called Djed, which means grandfather; Tresibaba (shaking baba) – a mountain in eastern Serbia. I would add here the plant snowdrop – visibaba (drooping baba). In all Slavic countries there are peaks, hills, mountains, and/or villages named Baba. VVVladimir

Why shaking baba? Are there earthquakes around there or something? -Bbik^★ 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I can satisfy here neither your nor my curiosity. I haven't heard that that area is particularly associated with earthqakes, but in the past, who knows. Vlado^Talk

• In Christianized versions...

I made this plural. If there's really only one version, go ahead and make it singular again, it just sounds a little awkward/extreme. -Bbik^★

• A Serbian scholar claimed...

You have citations there, however if you have a name, it'd make the sentence all that much better: "(The) Serbian scholar So-And-So claimed...". Same for ...but another Serbian scholar... -Bbik^★

 Done VVVladimir

• I added the ale plural to the intro. Yes, it's redundant to the table, and not a complete list of plural options, but it's the only one really relevant to the article, and in exchange, the table is now right after the plural as an immediately available explanation. Where you had the first-occurance note was a bit out of place anyhow, since the plural hadn't even come up yet, and it caused a definite "Huh? What's this have to do with anything?" moment, which isn't usually a good thing. -Bbik^★

I mean well, but it doesn’t always turn out well. VVVladimir

Heh, this talk page is now longer than the article itself. And considering that you still haven't run away in frustration (or impatience), that's saying a lot right there. People with this much patience for having their writing picked apart is rare; I sure can't claim it for myself, and even less so when I'm trying to write in a second language. -Bbik^★ 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

What can I do, I started this and want now to bring it to some conclusion (if possible). From your writing, I understand that you are very busy, you are not trying to make me give it all up :). Writing in a second language makes it more interesting for me, though the subject is interesting by itself, but the downside is that mistakes are inevitable (must be a bit annoying to you). Now I'm a little curious, what do you study, if I may ask, that makes youre schedule so constantly hectic? Vlado^Talk

Have an e-mail? It's a convoluted enough answer that it doesn't need to be here. -Bbik^★ 19:19, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Currently not. Vlado^Talk

Oh well. Short answer: nothing in particular, a little bit of everything, and study abroad. In any case, the (very few) mistakes are hardly annoying; I'm weird enough to actually have fun seeing the different mistakes different native languages cause. And "talented" enough to start copying many of them myself, given enough exposure. My spelling's been getting worse by the day lately, too, what with seeing so many different non-English spellings of the same words. -Bbik^★ 18:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I like that answer, I really do: nothing and everything :)! (Of course, I'm not asking for more on that:)) Yes, indeed, it must be interesting for you, from a linguistic viewpoint, the influences of various languages on what is written in English. Vlado

• Ale can metamorphose into humans or animals, after which their true selves can be seen only by so-called šestaci – men with six fingers on both hands and six toes on both feet. A house shakes when a human-looking ala comes into it. Ale that charge to the Moon have two heads, and can transform into various shapes – now they turn into humans with six fingers who hold an iron pitchfork, and then into animals: black young bulls, big boars, black wolves.

The paragraph in general seems a bit helter-skelter, though perhaps that's just me being tired. However, the last sentence is definitely odd. Are you trying to say that there's a group of ale who can shapeshift once, then have to go back to an ala-shape before switching to something new, and another group (the ones who charge to the moon) who can shift consecutively from one non-ala shape to another? Or are the mentioned shapes just options ale can use? Or something else entirely? -Bbik^★

Is it better now? VVVladimir

Yup. -Bbik^★ 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I made it through "Appearance", though I'll probably run through that section again when I get back. I doubt I'll get anything else done tonight, so go ahead and make whatever edits you want without worrying about possible edit conflicts. -Bbik^★ 21:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I know that an intro should be uncomplicated and smoothly flowing, but could you still incorporate clouds into those two sentences below, because ala, in her crop-destroyer aspect, is in the sources always associated with clouds. Meteorologically, the cloud in the picture is just of the kind that goes with thunderstorms, and that can produce hail. This is precisely the ala's kind of a cloud, the one that she leads over fields. The farmers were able to recognize these clouds from far away, and knew that “ala was coming”. The sentences considered:

• To farmers, ala was a demon that led hail and thunderstorms over their fields, ruining the crops.
• Ala is primarily a demon of bad weather whose main purpose is to lead hail-producing thunderstorms in the direction of fields, vineyards, or orchards…

VVVladimir

Ok, which works better, "...that led hail and thunderclouds..." or "... that led hail-producing thunderclouds..."? The first sentence of Effect on humans should probably be fixed too, once the specifics are figured out. -Bbik^★ 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

In the picture's caption, it may remain as it is, as a most general introduction, picked up at the first glimpse. In the other sentence: that led hail-producing thunderclouds. Vlado^Talk

I included an anti-ala spell, which I came across recently, but, if you are curious, here’s some more for you. These spells go along with a ritual, and are performed by a vračara, a woman who was taught magic by her grandmother, or by someone that came in her dream (at least they say so). These two spells (beside dozens of others) are against disease-producing curses, and are a part of a healing ritual, performed over sick persons:

• Retreat, retreat, you witches, fairies, winds, and devils. You have brought the disease, you have taken away the disease. Here is Grandma Spell-caster, sending you into the mountain to count leaves, into the sea to shift sands. Grandma Spell-caster blew you away with a breath, tossed you away with a hand, dispersed you apart with a herb.

• With an axe I cut you, with fire I burn you, with incense I fumigate you. Retreat, retreat, you have no place here. Go to the Lament Mountain, where roosters do not crow, where sheep do not bleat, where horses do not neigh, where dogs do not bark, where no girl combs her hair. Go to the height, go to the depth, you have no place here.

VVVladimir 18:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Fireplace trivet (Relations with humans). In old rural houses there was often no stove, but an open fire, in the part of the house called ognjište (fireplace). One of the utensils connected with ognjište was a sadžak - a hoop or grid with three legs, on which a caldron was put over or near the fire, for preparing meals (though the caldron was more often hung over the fire with a chain). So, I translated sadžak with fireplace trivet, but there might be a more appropriate English expression. Ognjište has a great symbolic value for a family, but also plays a role in magic. If you like, you can see here several images of ognjište: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. VVVladimir 17:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I can't guarantee that there's no other word for it, but I don't know of one (and couldn't find one, either). I see nothing wrong with fireplace trivet, though, so unless someone else comes along who does know a better word, I think it's going to stay as-is. -Bbik^★ 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Round 3

• ...but the Proto-Slavic mythology did have demons of bad weather. Among the East Slavs, that was Baba Yaga...

Baba Yaga being specified as only for East Slavs implies that there were other demons for the other branches. Assuming there were, do you know any of their names? If not, perhaps Among the East Slavs, for example, that was Baba Yaga... would work better. Otherwise, if Baba Yaga was the only proto-Slavic bad weather demon, the specification needs to either be removed, or rephrased to clarify that only the East Slavs had such a demon. -Bbik^★

Among the East Slavs, for example, that was Baba Yaga... would work better. Vlado^Talk

Well, given the new wording and pluralizing and whatnot, this has become a moot point (Or any of the US-specific definitions, not that I ever realized there were alternate meanings.) anyhow. -Bbik^★

O, now I know that you are not a member of the Scouts:). Vlado^Talk

Hmm? These ones? Technically, yes, practically, not anymore. Never heard the word used that way, though, that must be a British thing. And here's another link I completely missed last time, definition 2 is the one you're going for. -Bbik^★ 18:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it must have been interesting, scouting? As for the 'moot' link, it was rather informative, too :). Vlado

• These facts indicate that there was a Proto-Slavic divinity or demon called Baba, and that she was associated with bad weather.

Does the reference for the following paragraph apply to this one as well? If yes, I'd repeat the reference for this line/paragraph as well. If not, do you have a specific reference for at least this line? Because while I'm sure you're not just making things up, this sentence sounds very much like it could be original research, and I'd just assume avoid whatever {{fact}}-tagging issues before they even come up, rather than having to fight people about it later. -Bbik^★

I repeated the reference. Vlado^Talk

• Ale that mix with people can metamorphose into humans or animals...

I changed "mix" to "interact", since that seems to be the more likely meaning, but I'm honestly not certain whether you meant that, or meant mix in the sense of possessing a person's body. If I picked the wrong meaning, let me know. -Bbik^★

Interact is the word. Vlado^Talk

• ref>The word alav, an adjective in the Serbian language, is derived from ala, and means gluttonous - literally: who has an ala in himself.</ref

Nice little vocab lesson and all, and makes me very happy, but... it's only loosely related to the surrounding sentence. Sure it's right after the explanation of St. Simeon having an ala sneak into him, but "alav" isn't used anywhere, so the note seems a little out of left field. -Bbik^★

That linguistic note supports the fact that ala is seen as voracious, or gluttonous. If you think it's damaging, remove it, it's not extremely important. By the way, what is that left field, some sports term? Vlado^Talk

Left field is actually part of the whole phrase, also common is out of the blue, both of which mean that something seems unrelated, random, slightly strange, etc. There's actually a fun little bit of history for the phrase at that link, I'd never heard that before. -Bbik^★ 20:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe I am out of left field, too:). Vlado^Talk

After all, it's more fun that way! Though, it's usually used in relation to things, or comments, or maybe actions, rather than for people themselves. -Bbik^★ 18:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• This could be explained by her ability to transform into various shapes, which allows her to use the one with which she can most easily realize her goals. She is often represented in stories as gullible and stupid, which connects her with the devil.

These two sentences don't exactly go together. The first portrays her as (at least somewhat) intelligent, while the second says she's usually shown as stupid. Which is it? -Bbik^★

You know, these folk beliefs don't represent a standardized or canonized system of beliefs. By some tales or concepts, she is a big shot, by others, she is easily cheated. In many tales, a hero cheats the devil (which connects her with the devil). I do see that that fact (gullibility) is isolated from the rest of the text. The best solution woud be to create a new paragraph dealing with that concept, giving a gist of tales in which she gets cheated, but right now, I don't have these tales by me. For now, you can use some expression with which the sentence could be seamlessly welded to the rest of the text, or remove it. Vlado^Talk

• When she leads the hail clouds, ala shows herself also in the form of an eagle...

That "also" is awkward there. Does she always shift to an eagle when she's leading the clouds? Or only sometimes, and the point of the sentence is mainly to show that she has the ability to shift to that shape? Or can/does she have two shapes at once, and the eagle is in addition to something else (cloud-shape?)? -Bbik^★

Some folk beliefs depict cloud-leading ala as an eagle, alongside those beliefs already mentioned by which she is invisible, cloud-shaped, or a vague form with its head in the clouds. ‘Ala shows herself also’ is a metaphor for ‘another folk depiction of ala’. The point of this paragraph is to stress this, somewhat unexpected, concept of ala having the form of eagle. Unexpected because of this line of conclusion: the main weapon against ala is lightning -> lightning ultimately comes from the thunder god, who is thus ala's enemy -> the main companion of the thunder god is eagle -> a concept of ala having the form of eagle is unexpected. The author then gives his explanation. Okay now? Vlado^Talk

Ok, a differentiation between "another possible shape" and "an additional, simultaneous, shape", then. That's what I was guessing, but as it is folklore, you never know what crazy combinations people will come up with! Does it still sound ok to you? -Bbik^★

"Another form in which people see a cloud-leading ala, is that of an eagle", or something like that. Vlado^Talk

On the second thought, I removed the paragraph: 1)Eagle-ala is given in "Adversaries". 2)Shapeshifting is in the previous paragraph. 3) (but not least) While the rest of characters are from the recent folklore, the thunder god dissapeared from all beliefs long time ago, and is not mentioned at any other place in the article. He sticks out (if I said it right). Vlado^Talk —Preceding comment was added at 22:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• ref>The Serbian word berićet can be translated as crops, but also as fortune or blessing. It is somewhat obsolete nowadays.</ref

Same complaint as with the other ref bit, how's it related to the surrounding paragraph? Is berićet part of the phrase in Serbian? If yes, I'd say either include the phrase in both languages and keep the ref, or skip the phrase in Serbian, and remove the ref. If no... then I'm really at a loss for what the connection could be. -Bbik^★

When I put that reference, it was after She is also believed to drink the crops, and refers to the word crops (you may've moved it inadvertently). Crops is translation of berićet, which could also mean blessing, and fortune. It's okay to remove it, if it makes confusion, though I didn't see it as such, when I put it. Vlado^Talk

Not so much confusing, as only loosely related, and that's mostly because it's only the single word that was translated. Something like ..."drinking the crops"|ref> In Serbian, [something or other] berićet, where berićet usually means "crops", but can also mean "fortune" or "blessing"</ref would fit much better. Though, I noticed you've removed it completely anyhow, so... in with a couple extra words, in without extra words and just call me grumpy, or out entirely, whatever. I'll leave that up to you. -Bbik^★

... in with... in without... All that sentence seems a bit cryptic to me. Are you angry about something? Vlado^Talk

Bbik, dear child, if I thought you were grumpy, would I talked with you so long? It's nice and interesting to talk with you! Vlado 11:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's just me being confusing. I'm all too good at that. What I meant was that it's up to you whether you you want to re-add the note with a couple extra words to tie it in better, re-add it without any extra words and just declare that I'm being too nit-picky (which I'm definitely known for), or leave it out, since you've already removed it anyhow. Does that make a bit more sense? -Bbik^★ 18:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

That does. Vlado

• Ala is also believed to "drink the crops", or seize the crops of a village and transport them to another place in her huge ears...

I've rephrased it significantly, but the tense is the same. Should it really be in present tense? Do people still believe this happens? -Bbik^★

Today, you couldn't persuade even a seven-year old child that such a creature as ala really exists. I use the present tense mostly as a kind of figure of speech. In the sources it is also often used, but, of course, that is in Serbian, and if this style can make some confusion, it should be changed into the past tense. Sorry if I made a mess with this, but it's not easy to escape the influence of your first language. Vlado^Talk

Eh, just blame it on English, it's a mess of a language anyhow. Technically, talking about stories should be in present tense, but talking about mythical creatures which are now little more than stories, no idea. It'll probably work out fine once all the tenses are standardized to either present or past, it's the jumping back and forth that's the real problem, because that does give the impression that some are past beliefs, while some still exist. -Bbik^★

Of course, the past tense should be used. Vlado^Talk

• ...Tatar mountain...

I'm guessing you meant Tatra Mountains? If something else, you're going to have to figure out what should actually be linked, because I have no idea. -Bbik^★

There is nothing here to figure out: it means exactly what I linked it to: Tatars, a people. Tatar mountain is a mountain where Tatars live – in the folklore – and it symbolizes a desolate, far away place, inhabited by wild pagans. It is definitely not supposed to be geographically located. To use an example: trying to find Tatar mountain on a map, would be the same as trying to find Asgard on a map. Further, magic takes objects from the physical world, but it does not use them as such, but as symbols. What an object symbolizes, is usually derived from one of its most prominent aspects. For the general concept of Tatars in the past, see the lead of Tartary. It should be added to that, that Tatars were seen as terrifying, wild warriors, almost demons. Today, of course, they have nothing to do with such a reputation, and the name Tatars is applied more narrowly than in the past.

However, I'm not sure about the spelling, should it be Tatar Mountain? Vlado^Talk

Ah-hah, I didn't know all that, now I understand why you linked what you did. I'd been wondering how you'd have made a mistake with that one, when you were so careful about all the other links... seems it was actually my mistake. Perhaps to the Tatars' mountain(s)|ref> The pagan Tatars were previously seen as terrifying, wild warriors, almost demons, who lived in some desolate, far away place.</ref would be the best solution? The footnote probably isn't strictly necessary, especially if anyone is going to consider it OR or the like, but it clarifies the phrase wonderfully. -Bbik^★

The curses lifted from an afflicted person, and other "unclean forces" like ala, are, in spells, sent into a desolate mountain (not always called Tatar, see one of the spells on this page; usually called just mountain). The reputation of Tatars was as I said. So, that conclusion about what Tatar mountain means can be called an OR of mine, because it is not explicitly stated in the sources that I have. Vlado^Talk

Well that's frustrating. Much as I realize that the explanation isn't that important, I also think it would be really nice to have. Do any of the sources explain any of it at all, even if it's just a more general version, like your second one, about ale being sent to desolate mountains? Then we could include that part at least, and leave out the Tatar-specific bits. -Bbik^★ 18:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The closest thing to that, that I now know of, is the sentence: "In charms, secret words are spoken and mutually corresponding codes activated, evil forces are driven away to unclean places on the other side..." on this page (in English). Ala -> evil force; (Tatar) Mountain -> unclean place on the other side. The other side is the netherworld. In Slavic mythology the netherworld is a far away place on Earth (see this). This page is related to the matter, though not directly usable (if you have time to read it). However, do all scholars agree that the Mountain is on the other side, I'm not sure. Vlado

• ...while she performed a suitable ritual.

Any idea what was considered suitable? Perhaps a (very short) summary would be a good addition? -Bbik^★

Vračare cast their spells with a ritual. There are various rituals, for various situations. What is exactly the ritual that goes with that spell, my source doesn't tell. I used suitable to denote that the performed ritual is the one that is "prescribed" against the thunderstorms. Vlado^Talk

Ok, no biggy. "Suitable" works fine, it just would've been fun with more, but since the more isn't specified, don't worry about it. -Bbik^★

• a mightier ala is here, bareheaded.

Bareheaded? Meaning there are no clouds? What's it have to do with being mightier? Any ideas what that line's supposed to mean? (Just for my own curiousity, unless it can be justifiably and decently worked into the article.)

Hmm, or a second thought now that I'm double checking that I didn't already answer my own questions, should it maybe be "barehanded"? -Bbik^★

Bareheaded as without any covering for the head (again I use some offbeat word). Magic spells are not always supposed to be understandable to the general public. They are full of metaphorical and hidden meanings, and often sound very misterious. Of course, I asked myself what could that mean when I read it (the source mainly quotes these spells, without comments). I remembered that I read somewhere that in some regions, during thunder spells, people used to cover heads of children and feeble persons. I don't know, maybe uncovered head is a symbol of strength. If I find somewhere an explanation for that, I will share it with you. Vlado^Talk

Yeah, that's what I understood it as, it's just... strange, as you said. Does the Serbian version give any indication of whether the ala is mightier because she's bareheaded (as opposed to the other ala possibly not being bareheaded)? Or is it just a comment that this ala also happens to be bareheaded, and the status of the other ala's head is a non-issue? If the second, it would probably be better as a mightier, bareheaded, ala is here. If it's unclear, go ahead and leave it as it is -- it probably doesn't matter much anyhow. -Bbik^★

The second is the case. I just followed the word order of the original, because of its declamatory tone. A mightier, bareheaded, ala is here sounds to me a bit like an ordinary conversation, but if "...here, bareheaded" conveys a wrong impression, change it. Vlado^Talk

I think that here you are reading too much into what is a simple incantation. It sounds good, it fits the metrics, it could even hint at some connection of human and the sky or something similar. But I don't think it is crucial for the spell. Nikola 21:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, the rhythm is certainly better. Vlado 17:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Nikola's probably right, it wouldn't be the first time. It's one of those fun things about translating, deciding just how picky, and in what way, you want to be. *shrug* -Bbik^★ 18:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• ...a custom used when the approach of a thunderstorm was perceived...

the approach of the storm, rather than the storm itself? How would you see something that early, before there's even anything to see? Or were you going for something else? -Bbik^★

This means, when the signs in the sky and in the air make it obvious that there's going to be a storm, and before the storm actually starts. Vlado^Talk

• ...the places on a field where a plow turns around during plowing...

There has to be a better way to say all that, but if it has a specific name, I sure don't know it. "...the ends of rows..." or "...the ends/edges of fields..." maybe? Or do plows turn at more than the outer edges? I'm completely out of my element, here. -Bbik^★

The Serbian word is uvrata, but I didn't know for it before I read it in that source. It's quite an agricultural/rural word! You know, the ends of rows or the ends/edges of fields wouldn't work here, because the magic of that place is exactly in the fact that a plow turns around there, and not in its position on the field. And I know that plows, indeed, turn at more than the outer edges. This magic, just as in the case of levees, comes from a greater disturbance of earth. Vlado^Talk

And I know that plows, indeed, turn at more than the outer edges. -- This sentence is making me wonder if I've slightly misunderstood the meaning. Are we talking about where the plow itself turns, or where the dirt-turning part turns (aka tillage)? If the second, I might be able to come up with some better phrasing, if the first... well, the phrasing's still stuck, but I'll have learned something about farming -- I though plows only turned when they reached the edges. (Hmm, and for what it's worth, ridge and furrow doesn't seem to give any better insight into a single word that carries that full meaning, either, despite that it's named several other parts of a field, and twenty-six technical terms connected with the heavy plough and its use "are to be found in all three of the great Slavic lingusistic groups, the eastern, western and southern" is making me think there probably isn't a good translation -- that's an awful lot of words for a single fairly simply tool; it wouldn't surprise me in the least if English doesn't have even nearly as many.) -Bbik^★

Where the plow itself turns, together with its draft animals (in the past). Interesting facts. Vlado^Talk

I guess we're just going to have to wait for someone who grew up on a farm to come and improve it, then. -Bbik^★ 18:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Some mythology-loving cowboy, or cowgirl :). Vlado

• Relations with humans

This section header just feels ...off... but I can't come up with any suggestion that works better. I've changed it to "Effect on humans" for now, simply because the majority of that section is what she does to the human world, rather than the interaction-ary give-and-take that's typically implied by "relations", but I'm sure it could be improved more (aka I don't like "effect" either, it's just a more appropriate word). -Bbik^★

Effect on humans sounds good to me. Vlado^Talk

• ...drink the milk from sheep, especially when it thunders.

I can't figure out what to do with this part. I doesn't fit on its own or with a different paragraph/section, it doesn't fit as its own sentence, it doesn't fit as part of the previous sentence (as it is currently). It's an interesting tidbit, it just doesn't want to flow. Maybe you can figure out something to do with it now that I've done all kinds of rearranging? Perhaps if we delete the very life force that causes the plants to grow and bear their fruits (not strictly necessary, but I like that part...) the sheep bit would flow better, since the topic wouldn't be sidetracked? -Bbik^★

I deleted it. Vlado^Talk

• ...eclipse or ring the bells...

The bells? Which bells? Or do you mean a generic ringing of whatever bells are on hand? -Bbik^★

Generic ringing of whatever bells are on hand. Vlado^Talk

• Ale gather on the eves of greater holidays, divert men from their ways, and ride on their backs in gullies.

Diverting makes sense, but what do gullies have to do with anything? Do ale only ride on people's backs (piggyback ride?) on those nights? I'm not sure where I should put this sentence, either, since it's completely unrelated to all the rest. I've hidden it for the moment, so it doesn't bring readers to a jarring halt, but I'll try and find something to do with it on the next pass. If you have any ideas, have at it. -Bbik^★

First, gullies. I don't know how it's in English, but in Serbian, gullies symbolize the wilderness of mountains. Gullies are dark and wet places – just a habitat for ala. Secondly, gathering. Not only ale, but also other demonic creatures (vampires, fairies, witches, etc) are exceptionally active and dangerous at the eves of greater holidays (and in some other days), and some, like ale, convene to harm people. Thirdly, riding. It's not a piggyback ride, but a ride as a four-legged animal is ridden. So, being ridden by an ala (who is hardly some soft, gentle girl) in a dark, wet gully at night, is probably not a very pleasant expirience (at least for the most people), and I put it in the paragraph describing ala's attacks on people's health. Vlado^Talk

• Aloviti [men] and zmajeviti [men]

In Serbian, is just the -iti word used, or is men (the Serbian equivalent, obviously) actually included as well, and the two words used as a phrase? I might go re-edit that section a bit if the second is the case, though it doesn't actually make much difference. -Bbik^★

You are misled here, because -it(i) is no word, and no equivalent of men, but a suffix, that, combined with the preceding -ov or -ev, derives adjectives from nouns, and denotes possession of qualities of what the noun denotes, or being characterized by what the noun denotes. For example: sena – shadow, senoviti – shady; sila – force, siloviti – forceful; strela – arrow, streloviti – swift. Thus, as I put it, aloviti can be translated as ala-like (adjective), and should normally be used with man or men: aloviti čovek, aloviti ljudi. As in English, however, an adjective can be used without a noun (like in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, seen that film?). Vlado^Talk

Well, that'll teach me to think I have any idea how a language might work, when I know next to nothing about it. I think I've re-fixed those parts, in any case. (And no, unfortunately, I haven't. Someday.) -Bbik^★

Then learn Serbian :). Vlado 17:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I'm trying, don't worry about that. I even found a class here! :D And I think that's why my spelling's getting worse so much faster now, too... But hey, that's not that important, is it? -Bbik^★ 18:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Нека ти је са срећом, Ббик! (Literally: Let it be with good luck to you, Bbik!) With all your other qualities, that is not worth mentioning, though one should use a microscope to find your "bad spelling". Only a spelling robot (if it existed) could be expected to spell without a fault. Delightfully, you are not a robot. Vlado 21:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

• ala's table

What's it called in Serbian? That strikes me as the sort of thing that should be given in both languages. -Bbik^★

I italicized it, because it's something invisible, magical, because it's not a wooden, or hardware table. In Serbian, it's алина софра / alina sofra (sofra = dining table, a word very rarely used today). I don't see the need to include it. Vlado^Talk

Don't worry, I highly doubt someone will think there's an actual, solid table in the middle of a road, much less in the middle of the road at night specifically. -Bbik^★

• ...the winged dragons...

Specifically the winged ones, rather than... wingless?... ones? I've taken it out for now (easier editting), pending clarification. -Bbik^★

All dragons are winged. It's just an emphasis that they have wings. Vlado^Talk

Ok, I'm going to leave it out, then. There's the dragon link if people somehow get confused, and it's also mentioned several times that the dragons fly to fight ala, so it should be obvious enough already that the dragons have wings. -Bbik^★

• If ala finds a dragon in a hollow tree, she can destroy him by burning the tree.

Not too terribly important, but... If the dragons control the lightning, what do ale use to burn trees? Do they also control lightning? -Bbik^★

The source refers to a tale where an ala burnt a dragon in a hollow tree, but doesn't say any more about it. I haven't come across that tale, so neither can I say any more. Vlado^Talk

• A story from Banat, held to be true...

Still held to be true? If so, go ahead and re-add that bit, though it might need a bit of clarification. -Bbik^★

Held to be true, when the source of my source for that sentence had been written (1958). No one believes such things any more, but it's an interesting fact, that that story had been held true at that time. Vlado^Talk

Yes, that it is. I'll see what I can do about readding it and making it flow a bit better. -Bbik^★

• Serbian tale

Can you check the numbering of the rooms there? Room three seems to have been skipped, and a few numbers don't agree between the first and second halves. Also, for both this and the Russian one, if any of my copyeditting (so far, or still to come) changes the meaning/tone drastically, rather than just helping the flow, let me know and I'll see what else I can come up with -- while understanding is good, since these are actual stories, I'd like to keep them as close to the original as possible, though that's a bit hard without having (the knowledge to read) the originals.

Of course, I noticed it myself (I'm talking about the numbering), but this is how the person that collected the tale wrote it down, and I didn't want to rewrite it. I know you are concerned about how readers will react to the text. Now, is it a mistake of the story-teller, or of the collecter? Has it, nevertheless, some deeper meaning? I can't tell for sure. Your copyediting didn't change the meaning/tone at all. Vlado^Talk

In that case, we'll leave the numbering alone. If the original has it misnumbered, the reader will just have to deal with the translation being accurate to the original (What a concept! :p). -Bbik^★

• Russian tale

An alternate to "is", where I added it, would be to replace it with either a comma or a dash, though I'm not sure which would work better in this case -- things aren't generally written like that in English, so either method is equally unusual. -Bbik^★

It looks quite nice to me. Why can't something be unusual? It's a tale about a magical creature :). Vlado^Talk

No reason. More looking for a second opinion of which sounds better and/or matches the original better, if there's even any noticable difference. -Bbik^★

• If I messed up the meaning of the note for kuma, then it might need a better explanation. I tried to make it a bit clearer based on how I understood it, I only hope I was correct. -Bbik^★

That's good. Vlado^Talk

• There is a saying for a very strong man: “as strong as ala”.

I stuck that in ref tags because I can't figure out how to decently incorporate it and it's only a minor note, but if you can find someplace better/can word it to feel less like a sidetrack, go ahead and do so. If it stays in ref tags, perhaps the actual Serbian word/phrase could be included too? (Maybe there should just be an ala-related vocab section, with all these words ending up in ref tags. Sounds a bit silly, but it could be considered relevant... Maybe just combine all the various notes into one? Or maybe I'm just making a much bigger fuss out of it all than necessary, who knows.) -Bbik^★

As strong as ala = Јак као ала. Interesting idea. Vlado^Talk

• A few apostrophes and qutation marks may need re-fixing, though I think I caught them all -- I was working on an older version I'd started editting a while ago and saved to my computer, so just added your more recent changes to that and continued editting. You also might need to fix a few references, considering all the moving I did. -Bbik^★

• Present vs. past tense -- Is ala still imagined/believed/thought to do these things? Or should it all be switched to past tense? Once that's decided, the whole thing needs a run through to check tenses. There are at least a few disagreements still in there that I've noticed, a few that are unclear, and almost certainly more that I've overlooked completely, because finding/fixing tense issues is one of those things I'm particularly bad at -- I tend to just substitute the appropriate one without noticing what it really says. -Bbik^★

That substituting is just what a reader should do, and what I supposed that a reader would do. But as I said above, if it can convey a wrong impression, or make a confusion, change it to the past tense. Vlado^Talk 16:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually... No, a reader shouldn't have to subsitute one word for another (or at least, that's what we were always taught at school), not unless they're skimming or something similar. I'll run through and check tenses later, that's not the sort of thing I can do quickly. -Bbik^★

So, this is where I'm at so far. The last two sections (Adversaries and Connection with Baba Yaga) still need a bit of work, the first doesn't flow as well as I'd like and the second I've barely skimmed, but I think I'm considering the rest pretty much done. Apologies for making the diff so hard to follow, but as I mentioned on your talk page, the editting reached a point where minor fixes and rearranging all needed to be done at once, or it wouldn't have made much sense, and would've taken infinitely more edits to sort out what I'd actually meant to change from what I changed because of the previous, rather than new, order. And as always, if there's something about my changes that you disagree with, go ahead and complain, or fix it yourself.

Also, if all these "Round #" subsections bother you, go ahead and remove the headers, or retitle them, or whatever. I just find it makes editting a lot easier when there are shorter sections to work with, rather than dealing with the whole thing every time.

And now, back to homework with me. Maybe I'll do a bit more with the last two sections tonight, but most likely that'll have to wait until next weekend again. -Bbik^★ 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

We could as well use mail for this correspondence :).

That paragraph about St. Sava, consisting of one sentence… It might be the best to remove it until I find more on his fight against ala. Vlado^Talk 16:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe e-mail, snail mail could get a bit expensive!

I was just joking that it seems as if we send paper letters to each other, using "snail mail". No need to change the medium. Vlado^Talk

Up to you. It doesn't really fit currently, but I could probably incorporate it better if I could just find enough time to actually work on it.

Oh, and might I suggest we archive this (massive) section once it's finished up? The rest of the page is short enough to stay or go as you wish. -Bbik^★ 19:19, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Good suggestion. The rest may stay. Vlado^Talk 18:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment

Capitalization seems to be remarkably inconsistent in this article. If Ala is a proper name, it should be capitalized at every occurrence. If it isn't, then there should be some text indicating that it is in fact not a proper name, and indicating exactly what the word "ala" is if not a proper name. John Carter 17:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no inconsistency in capitalization of this article. Look a little bit more closely: ala is capitalized only when it is the first word in a sentence. Ala is a mythological creature like dragons, fairies, vampires, etc. It is seen in the article that there is not only one ala, which implies that ala is not a proper name, in the same way as e.g. dragon, fairy, and vampire are not proper names. Vlado^Talk 13:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)