Talk:Adam Carroll (racing driver)

Nationality

Always a tricky one this. Here's the little I know. Carrol was born in NI, which means that he will hold a British passport. He also has the right to an Irish one, since that arrangement has only recently been withdrawn, but may or may not actually have one. However, outside FIA world championships, your passport has nothing to do with which country you compete for as this is determined by which licensing authority issued your racing license. I have no idea what license Carrol's using at present, but as he's racing in A1GP for Ireland, I suspect they have arranged for him to do so on an Irish license, which would mean that the Irish flag in the A1GP infobox was right. In the lead on the other hand, he may be correctly referred to as Irish or British. At present it says that he's from Northern Ireland, which given that was where he was born, is all we can say until someone can dig up a ref on his actual nationality. Happy to hear any further news on this. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 19:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

According to the A1 website his nationality is listed as Ireland, his birthplace listed as Portadown, Northern Ireland, Great Britain. I'd argue his nationality should be changed to Irish as this, according to the rules, must be his current nationality and I would think that nationality would refer to his citizenship and not his drivers license, it is very easy to get another countries driving license and would mean major problems for A1 in that it would be easy to poach drivers from different countries in this way. [1] --Robnubis

I'd then also argue that once the above issue is resolved, this article would not be within the scope of British Motorsport and comes under the scope of Irish Motorsport, this is referenced constantly by all journalists covering A1 Grand Prix. His answers in this interview also allude to what nationality he personally identifies with [2] I wont edit until we have a few more people weigh in on this issue, but at this moment I think the A1 website is enough proof of his nationality, especially since it is also required by the rules for him to be Irish to drive for team Ireland. Being from Northern Ireland would mean he is British and therefore not eligible for Team Ireland.(talk) 15:31, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

A little fact that both of you are overlooking, is that Team Ireland covers the entire island, not just the Republic. Hence why Ireland's Call is played as our anthem rather than Amhrán na bFhiann. As such, although Adam is British, he is eligible to race for Team Ireland. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 16:00, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

That's my understanding too. The A1GP site is clear that he is representing Ireland, but does not suggest that this means the ROI exclusively. Carroll's answer to the question about his dual eligibility is interesting, but doesn't say that he is an ROI national. This seems to be the same as the situation for the Irish rugby team. Would it be useful to follow that example? 4u1e (talk) 08:00, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

After a quick flick through the Irish rugby team article and some of the current squad, flags and nationalities tend not to be used at all, although one article used a green and white square to indicate the Ireland team. Could this be adapted for A1GP? 4u1e (talk) 08:07, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

While the A1 team covers the entire island, the team does fly the flag of the Republic, which has been used to represent the team for the past four years. As such, all flags referring to the team will remain the flag of the Republic. As for Adam, we need to verify his actual nationality, whether has races for Ireland under an Irish passport. It's like the situation with Graham Rahal racing for Lebanon, as he of Lebanese heritage. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 13:46, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Your compromise edit is fine by me, however I am going to change the ref a little.MITH 09:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Team Ireland uses the flag of the Republic, but represents both the Republic and Northern Ireland? Weird, and I'm amazed it hasn't caused tremendous trouble with about 50% of the population of NI. However, if that's what the team officially does, then we should follow suit. It would be really useful to get a ref for it though, as it's likely to cause problems with some editors. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 14:19, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, the most obvious ref would be the A1 site itself (see the countries bar), and more specifically the A1 Team Ireland micro-site. All merchandising also bore the tricolour, as I can plainly see it on my Team Ireland t-shirt which I have in my hand right now. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 14:31, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Bit weak for a potentially controversial topic, though. I can't see anything other than the flag in the nav bar at the top. Don't forget that we need to cover both the fact that the team uses the tricolor, and that the team really does represent the whole of Ireland. Something written would be much stronger. (And I know, I can look just as easily as you. A bit busy this weekend, tho....:)) 4u1e (talk) 22:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Is this argument still justifiable now that A1GP and A1 Team Ireland are dead? Should Carroll now be considered British? --Falcadore (talk) 20:32, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd say until we see him racing again and thus see what flag he will race under, to leave it as is for the time being. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 21:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

He just signed to join Andretti Autosport for the 2nd half of the Izod IndyCar Series in North America this year. Right in that series all the drivers from England fly the British flag while Dario Franchitti flys the Scottish flag. So there's a few different ways he could go.Froo (talk) 19:48, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

The ICS' way of doing it is quite odd. On their website, Franchitti has the Scottish flag, yet everyone else has the Union Jack... There are three possible options that will happen: the Republic flag, the Northern Irish flag, or the Union Jack. Which it will be, we'll have to wait and see when he eventually shows up on their drivers page. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 22:04, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

FIA rules state that a driver's nationality is based on what passport they hold, with multiple citizenship being decided by the driver (e.g., Nico Rosberg). Since Carroll is a UK citizen, it's pretty clear-cut. The fact that he raced for Team Ireland is a bit of a red herring - see the Rahal/Team Lebanon situation mentioned above. IRL rules may be different as shown by the Franchitti situation - or they could just be sloppy (wouldn't be the first time). So it seems inevitable that Carroll's nationality should be (and always should have been) listed as UK, but it's always prudent to wait for confirmation. EeepEeep (talk) 01:47, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

What you say is true for FIA world championships. A1GP and Indycar don't fall into that category and in those cases it's determined by the racing license as far as I know. In any case Carroll may have both passports, in which case he can choose which one applies. 4u1e (talk) 07:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Driving for an A1GP team does not change someone's nationality. He's british and has always driven as british. The partisans may not like it but that's an indisputable fact. I fixed the page as it is and always was completely and totally inappropriate to misrepresent his nationality. 99.68.213.24 (talk) 05:15, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

It may not change his nationality, but seeing as he has dual citizenship, he could choose whichever as his racing nationality. If you were to read the rest of the conversation you'll see that the current consensus is to wait to find out what racing nationality he uses in the IndyCar Series and then use that. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 14:26, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Don't let's forget that the nationality in the infobox is the nationality he competes as, which is not necessarily the same as his passport and can change from season to season. A1Gp is/was a bit of an oddball series as the only one I can think of where drivers do not have an official nationality under which they compete - instead the teams have a nationality. 4u1e (talk) 18:16, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

And since he's always competed as British, it makes no sense to list him as Irish (no cite on that dual citizenship BTW). If there was a consensus to list his nationality as Zimbabwean would you leave it at that? It's clearly untrue, it's absurd to knowingly put false information in an article. 128.114.59.182 (talk) 03:23, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom:

Each UK home nation has its various national sporting teams, which are often are allowed to recruit new team members based on the nationality of their parents or grandparents. These players are sometimes described as a nationals of their team's nation, and often become proud to be a representative of the two different nations. The original nationality of the player is usually used in these cases—though some players may choose to adopt the nationality of the country they played for.

So without any evidence that he's adopted Irish nationality, the only reasonable course is to use the nationality he's used throughout his career: British. 128.114.59.182 (talk) 08:46, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

The consensus for WP:MOTOR is that drivers are given the nationality they officially compete for, usually passport nationality for FIA world championships, or racing license nationality for other series. I believe the contention in this case is that Carroll was officially competing for Ireland while driving in A1GP. As I say, A1GP is a bit of an oddball series, so that may well have been the case. We've actually got no references either way. If you have found any, they would be a valuable addition to the article. Carroll's not helped the situation by dropping off the radar completely since winning the title for Ireland (Although I'm sure he hasn't done it just to spite us...). 4u1e (talk) 16:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

It's just over a week until the first practice of the IndyCar race at Watkins Glen, when we'll find out for definite what nationality he will be using there. Unless there's a test session before that which has IndyCar reporting box scores, then we'll take it from that. Until then, just cool down and wait until it's mentioned what nationality he will use in the IRL, which we will use. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 16:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

British flag at present. Cs-wolves(talk) 22:43, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, that settles that then :) TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 13:49, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

On Adam Carroll's official website, his bio states that his nationality is Northern Irish. Based on the fact that this is the nationality he chooses to refer to himself by, and based on the fact that people in NI can opt for dual nationality, I have changed it to Northern Irish and used the NI flag as the icon. In my opinion this is the best compromise for the issue. Please visit http://www.adamcarrollracing.com/ADAM/Adam_Carroll.html for verification of this. I have also added a cite note ref to this page. Heggyhomolit (talk) 04:49, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Removed the Ulster banner as per WP:IMOS FLAGS. Bjmullan (talk) 17:24, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

In terms of the motor racing infobox, the agreed position is that the nationality is the nationality you officially compete for. Carroll appears to be officially competing under the Union Jack, for whatever reason. It is possible, although apparently rare, for a driver to use more than one nationality during a career (see Bertrand Gachot), but not more than one at a time. His own personal identification is a completely different thing and since he considers his 'nationality' to be Northern Irish, then by all means the words of the article should reflect that. In fact it might be best to add a section on this to the article, similar to that for Eddie Irvine and Nico Rosberg. 4u1e (talk) 13:26, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Worth noting of course that TV coverage of Irvine typically used a Union Flag next to his name, however whenever he took an F1 podium position, he chose to use a neutral Shamrock Flag rather than upset anyone from either side of the border. The only way to resolve this is a statement from Carroll - being born in Northern Ireland means you can be a citizen of the Republic OR a British Citizen, OR BOTH, so it is not for us to decide what nationality Carroll is, it is for him. I note that Colin McRae is listed in Wikipedia as being 'Scottish' - surely then if Carroll is 'British', then so should McCrae? Why does McCrae get special treatment? It didn't say 'Scottish' in his passport did it? This Wikipedia article should respect Carroll's decision to be regarded as 'Northern Irish' in the same way McRae is listed as 'Scottish' - it is that simple. Skookumuk (talk) 12:17, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Wrong about Irvine, I'm afraid. Footage of Irvine always used a Union Jack, and a Union Jack flag was almost always used on the podium. On a couple of occasions the ROI flag was used in error. Irvine once suggested that a neutral Shamrock flag be used for the reasons you suggest but it never happened. I'm amazed that this urban myth persists despite the lack of any concrete evidence! See talk:Eddie Irvine for extensive discussions on this. When racing you do have an official nationality that you compete for (see the FIA International Sporting Regulations for more details) - Carroll is appearing in results under his UK nationality at present, although I could wish for better evidence as to which country issued his racing license, which is the deciding factor at the level he competes at. In F1 it would be the passport.

Re McRae - he is both Scottish and British of course. The nationality he officially competed under is British, although obviously it is also correct to refer to him as Scottish. 4u1e (talk) 19:16, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

4u1e is correct about Irvine and McRae. I think that the reason Colin is shown as Scottish is there is much evident to support the fact that this was his chosen identity. I think as long as Carroll is competing we should continue to use the widely used format of whatever the racing body uses, with is current British. 23:54, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Although note that since Carroll talks about himself as Northern Irish on his website, we can use that term in the article. The formal stuff I'm referring to above is for the infobox and official results. 4u1e (talk) 19:44, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Bjmullan (talk) 20:52, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

A couple of notes on this. The only shamrocks that appeared during Irvine's F1 career was the one on the back of his helmet. It indicates nothing other than an acknowledgement that he is Irish. Irish, that is, not in the sense of nationality or of belonging to the Republic of Ireland. Just Irish. We don't need a statement from Carroll to determine that he is British - he was born in Northern Ireland. Anyone born in the United Kingdom is automatically British. People born in Northern Ireland specifically have the option to adopt citizenship of the Republic of Ireland. We would, however, need definite proof that Carroll had adopted that citizenship. What is beyond doubt though, is that Carroll is British, whether he self-identifies as British or not. Colin McRae was British as well. There is no such nationality as Scottish, though McRae was most definitely a Scottish person, and proud of it. The nation state is the United Kingdom. Regions in it have descriptors - Northern Irish, Scottish, English, Welsh, Yorkshireman, Ulsterman, Glaswegian and a host of others. But the nationality in common is British. --81.135.29.171 (talk) 08:04, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Nationality is not the same as citizenship. Carroll is "British" by citizenship (becaus he was born and livs in the UK) but he might also be "Irish" by citizenship (becaus he was born in Northern Ireland). In terms of nationality he might self-identify as Irish, Northern Irish, British or a combination of those. The only person who can anser that is himself. ~Asarlaí 03:02, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to bring this up again but while Carroll raced in the US it was OK to describe him as NI but he now competes in Auto GP as British and his lede should be brought in line with other racing drivers as per the MOS (e.g. John Watson, David Coulthard, Paul di Resta, Jenson Button ...). I therefore propose that the opening sentence be changed to "Adam Carroll (born 26 October 1982) is a British racing driver who currently races in Auto GP for Campos Racing...". His place of birth is covered in the opening sentence of the first paragraph.Bjmullan (talk) 20:33, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I think we recently relaxed that guidance for the lede, provided that the driver is obviously and consistently identified with a particular nationality. There was a discussion at talk:Tom Pryce to that effect, which I think was run past WP:F1 as well. That would have no effect on the infobox which remains British until and unless he starts racing under a ROI license. 4u1e (talk) 07:03, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

A1 Race record

Shouldn't his A1 race record also be recorded here as well? Bjmullan (talk) 16:23, 17 November 2009 (UTC) waqnt

There's a format you could use at Alexandre Prémat, if you want to add the results 4u1e (talk) 19:53, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

What a good idea, I think I will do that Bjmullan (talk) 22:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Sporting Nationality

Carroll never represented Britain but Team Ireland and as such his sporting nationality is Irish the following sources back up this assertion Crash.net, Independent.ie, BBC. Independent.ie and Crash.netMo ainm~Talk 10:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you read any of the above? JonC^Talk 10:24, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

So it is your belief that Graham Rahal and Chris Alajajian are Lebanese? A1 GP played very fast and loose with concepts of nationality. --Falcadore (talk) 11:57, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

What has that got to do with anything? Mo ainm~Talk 14:02, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

It has more to do with it than your above provided references. The first two make no mention of his nationality, and the third one actually states his is British. I suggest to take a closer look at just what sort of nationality could drive for an A1 team before you further exacerbate what is already a WP:3R violation. --Falcadore (talk) 14:28, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Where is it stated he is British? And what are you talking about 3RR violation? The sources show he represents Team Ireland and being born in NI he is entitled to Irish, British or both citizinship. Now as representing Team Ireland his sporting nationality is Irish. Mo ainm~Talk 15:34, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you look at the examples I cited of Graham Rahal and Chris Alajajian? Both raced for Lebanon yet Rahal is American and Alajajian is Australian. Racing for A1 Team Ireland merely meant that yet met the criteria for racing for an A1 Grand Prix team which could be as little as having Irish ancestry. Nationality and Citizenship are not necessarily determining factors. Additionally the BBC article you used as a citation clearly states he was British, not of the Irish Republic. --Falcadore (talk) 01:07, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Again where does it state he is British? Mo ainm~Talk 11:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

In the two sources provided that you removed. You've got to understand that a racing driver's infobox merely states the country that issues their licence, not any deeper personal self-identificiation, and Carroll holds a UK one. JonC^Talk 19:04, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Neither source mention anything about a licence. Mo ainm~Talk 19:37, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The big ol' Union Jacks are a pretty good indicator... JonC^Talk 19:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't agree all speculation but they could be used for the place he lives now, or his birthplace all of which according to MOSFLAG are reasons not to use them here. Look at his picture on the article, wearing an Ireland top, look at his website, wearing Ireland racing gear, look at the car he was driving on his own website Ireland wrote across it. Mo ainm~Talk 19:58, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

A1 Team Ireland was an all-island team that competed in an event that hasn't existed for years. It's completely irrelevant now. In IndyCar and the GP2 series, where Carroll has spent the last two years, he's competed as a Briton, as the sources demonstrate. JonC^Talk 20:05, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Sources don't demonstrate anything a lazy webmaster throws a Union Flag on doesn't make him represent Britain. Mo ainm~Talk 20:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

So the official websites of the series Carroll currently competes in are run by lazy webmasters that throw incorrect flags about willy-nilly? And I suppose the same is true for the FIA and Michael Schumacher really competed as a Brazilian? Is Seb Vettel a Finn that's too polite to request that they play a different national anthem when he wins? For goodness sakes, man... JonC^Talk 20:21, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Aren't your sources equally lazily placed by your argument? As far as I can tell your entire arguement is that he raced for A1 Team Ireland, which was not Republican Irish specific anyway. I completely fail to see how anything you've said or proiveded is in anyway compelling. Let's see instead something better than arguments of 'lazy webmasters' which is speculative at best.

From your BBC link The Northern Irishman clinched pole on Saturday for both the feature and sprint races at Brands. --Falcadore (talk) 20:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

And being from Northern Ireland makes him Irish or British or both. Mo ainm~Talk 20:54, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

And that or means you need more than what you've provided. --Falcadore (talk) 21:27, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Although you may have inadvertantly provided the source of the problem. By Irish to you mean Republic of Ireland or do you mean Carroll is of the Irish Island inclusive of national borders. Because with international racing the Irish green/white/orange tricolour refers specifically to the Irish Republic and not to Northern Ireland. I also note belatedly you do not link to Iteland, but to Irish, which is a disambiguation page, not a national page. In this instance Wikipedia does not recognise Supra-national concepts like Irish anymore than it would recognise Scandinavian or Polynesian or Iberian. Is this the source of your confusion? --Falcadore (talk) 21:38, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

What part of TEAM IRELAND are you having trouble with? Is it that great big shamrock on the back of his car? Or is it the TEAM IRELAND logo on his jacket?--Domer48_'fenian' 09:55, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

What part of you don't have to have the right nationality to drive for the team, written several times now, are YOU struggling with? Have a look at A1 Team Lebanon for example. --Falcadore (talk) 10:07, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes but he has the right nationality, different if he was born in Germany but he is Irish and represented Ireland. Mo ainm~Talk 10:10, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Except that Irish nationality in international racing refers specifically to the Republic of Ireland. --Falcadore (talk) 10:12, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

So are you saying because he now races for Super Nova he is British? Mo ainm~Talk 10:19, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Where did he say that? He races as a Briton because he has a British licence issued by the UK, as illustrated by this reliable source. JonC^Talk 10:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Where in that source is that claim made? Mo ainm~Talk 10:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Nationality: British. In a motor racing context, this means where his licence is from. For example, Ho-Pin Tung is Chinese in his racing infobox because he races with a Chinese licence, but he's a Chinese Dutchman with Dutch citizenship. JonC^Talk 10:33, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I've provided a source which calls him Irish. Mo ainm~Talk 10:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

But not one from any series Carroll has competed in that shows he has a licence issued by the Republic of Ireland. Ho-Pin Tung is Dutch and there's plenty of sources that refer to him as so, but he's Chinese for motor racing purposes. JonC^Talk 10:45, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Abitrary break

I looked just now, and the field is titled "Nationality" not "Country which issued his driving licence". Just sayin'.. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:49, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

It is, but the latter sense is what it's used for Wiki-wide. See my Ho-Pin Tung example above (or, for another Ulster driver, Eddie Irvine) for a good illustration of this. JonC^Talk 13:58, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe there's a case to be made for renaming the field "racing nationality" in the template. JonC^Talk 13:59, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Where in Wikipedia is the MOS which says we use "Nationality" as being the "Country which issued his driving licence"? What is "racing nationality" is this used in racing?--Domer48_'fenian' 09:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

It's a racing driver infobox, therefore it shows the nationality that driver races under. It's not that hard to figure out. It's almost always the same as his passport nationality, but not in every case. It's not "country that issued his driving licence", it's the nationality of the body that issues his racing licence - which is an altogether different thing. Sporting nationality is the correct thing for a sporting infobox. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:56, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

So you are dismissing the arguments put forward by Jonchapple. Mo ainm~Talk 18:26, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, leave the page as it was until the discussion is over and consensus reached, please? Did I dismiss the arguments made by Jon Chapple? Where on earth did you get that from? Which particular arguments are you referring to? Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:29, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

You said It's not "country that issued his driving licence" which is the arguemnet that Jon was putting forward, and I have restored balance to the article better if nothing there till sorted but if one goes in the for balance both go in, cant just take one side. Mo ainm~Talk 18:32, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I suspect he means the same thing as I do, but a driving licence is not the same thing as a racing licence. The thing with you editing the page itself while the discussion is going on is that you are just adding your preferred version with no consensus. Let's just leave the page as it was originally until the discussion is at an end, and consensus is reached. You are ignoring the official GP2 website which indicates that his licence is British. None of the sources you have added say that his licence is from the Republic of Ireland. None of them. He wasn't born there and has never raced with an Irish licence. The racing infobox (it is not a general infobox) is supposed to show his sporting nationality, i.e. the nationality of the governing body that issues his sporting licence. That he raced for Team Ireland means nothing. He could have raced for any A1GP team. You aren't expected to know that, as it requires a fair level of knowledge of the machinations of the sport, but it is nonetheless true. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:41, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Templating the people you're arguing with, while continuing to edit the page in your favour, against the established version, while a discussion is ongoing is unhelpful. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:44, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Reverting twice in a couple of minutes is edit warring at least you were notified. And where does it state on the GP2 website that his licence was issued by Britain? Has an infobox with British as his nationality but that doesn't say anything about his licence and could just be a lazy webmaster seeing he was born in NI and then stating his nationality. Mo ainm~Talk 18:50, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I was talking about his racing licence when I've been saying "licence", not the one he needs to drive a car to the shops. JonC^Talk 19:03, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Mo ainm, I didn't template you, or report you, because it's a tedious process, no other reason. Again, don't take this personally and I'm not trying to be uncivil, but this comes from you not knowing very much about motor sport, I'm afraid. An official series website shows "nationality" as the nationality of his licence, i.e. the nationality of the body that has allowed him to enter that series - it's the same in F1. A driver is not permitted to have a licence of one nationality and appear in official sources as a different nationality. It's laid out in the FIA rulebook, which unfortunately I can't find at the moment. You can forget the "could just be a lazy webmaster" line - as the official series website, it is a reliable source. Equally wrongly, I could criticise your newspaper sources as lazy journalism. None of them mentions his sporting nationality anyway. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:17, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Template me for what? Report me for what I made and edit and one revert. Also can you provide a reliable source that A driver is not permitted to have a licence of one nationality and appear in official sources as a different nationality. Mo ainm~Talk 19:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not getting into a pissing contest with you, you've been edit-warring on this page for days. You removed a perfectly valid source to say Carroll was British, why was that? As I say, I can't find the rulebook. Someone quoted it just recently and now I can't find it again. I will continue to look. You'll see that I've reverted the page to your basketcase version for a quiet life. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:30, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

And now it's wrong. Better hope no-one comes here in the meantime looking specifically for that information. JonC^Talk 19:32, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

BB, would it be in "Appendix L" at the bottom of the FIA Super Licence page? JonC^Talk 19:34, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Have a cup of tea and calm down try this link you might find it here FIA Regulations you know what your looking for I don't. Mo ainm~Talk 19:36, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Nothing in that appendix about nationality. Mo ainm~Talk 19:38, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Firstly don't patronise me. Secondly, unfortunately, that's not the link I'm looking for. I hope you're pleased that the page is wrong. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Why would I be pleased I'm here to find a reliable source for what you are claiming thought I was helping, and I wouldn't dream of patronising an editor who is so clearly knowledgeable in this field all I want is a resolution to this matter not a whinge fest from editors about the motives of un-named editors. Mo ainm~Talk 19:47, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, it's not what anyone is claiming. The dude has a British racing licence, it's a fact. The problem exists where reliable sources are ignored as not good enough. If you want a resolution to the matter, why not just accept the official GP2 website. It's the series he races in, it's official, it's reliable, but no, it's apparently not good enough. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:00, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

It mentions nothing about a licence, now if you had the other source which you have misplaced to back up your assertion that A driver is not permitted to have a licence of one nationality and appear in official sources as a different nationality then happy days. Mo ainm~Talk 20:04, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

As explained, it's the only thing it can mean, but you don't believe us. The fact that it has never happened that a driver presents himself under a nationality different to that of his licence is also not good enough. The source will show up, and the article will be corrected. A thorough waste of time. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:17, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Have you a source to back that up also? Mo ainm~Talk 20:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Is it in the article? No? Then it doesn't need a source. This is a talk page, I don't need to provide sources for my comments on talk pages for people who would need a source to say that water is wet. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Please loose the hostility, we are trying to reach consensus here, you keep throwing around claims I am asking you to back them up with sources, which at present you are unable to do. If I were to say I have a source that says he has an Irish licence would you not ask me to produce it? Mo ainm~Talk 21:48, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I am not even approaching hostility. Funny you should say "If I were to say I have a source that says he has an Irish licence", because you don't have a source that says that, yet the article now implies exactly that, given that anyone with even a slight knowledge of motor sport articles would know that the infobox nationality is the sporting nationality. In this case, it now isn't. See how you demand sources to back up what people are telling you, yet you can't provide a single source to say that Carroll's sporting nationality is Irish. The GP2 source is clear that his sporting nationality is British. It seems that nobody can actually put that in the article now for fear of inciting some kind of anti-Irish sentiment. If it's a toss-up between being banned for providing a fact in an article or putting up with blatant nonsense like we have now, I can put up with the blatant nonsense. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:04, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I have provided a source that states he is Irish. Mo ainm~Talk 22:06, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

And it has been explained to you that it's a sporting infobox and requires his sporting nationality. This is currently incorrect. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:07, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The infobox as it stands states Nationality, not sporting, I have argued for this to be changed on other sporting templates with no success maybe you could try it on the template. Mo ainm~Talk 22:10, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

As "Infobox racing driver", it's patently a sporting infobox, so why on earth would it not be sporting nationality? His notability lies in his sporting career therefore any other aspect of his nationality is irrelevant to the sporting infobox. I would have thought that the requirement for sporting nationality is self-evident, otherwise we get situations like this one. For F1 it is always the case. No wait, you'll want a source for that. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:16, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

So a new user will automatically know that it is sporting nationality that is being depicted I don't think so. Mo ainm~Talk 22:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Got a source for that? Leave it wrong, I'm past caring. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Don't need a source I'm not stating a fact but an opinion. Mo ainm~Talk 22:26, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The fact remains that you've been shown sources (here's another one from his team [3]) that Carroll is British. For reasons known only to yourself, you've put on the article that he's from the Republic of Ireland, as shown by the flag of that country that you added. You have no sources to say that Carroll is from the Republic of Ireland - obviously you don't because it's untrue. It is considered inflammatory to be changing "Irish" to "British" on articles or changing the tricolor to the Union Flag, apparently even if it's accurate and verifiable, so I'm not prepared to risk action against me by changing it. That's how I see it. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:48, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Part of the problem here is the destination link. Firstly it was to Irish, which is useless as a link as it leads to a disamibguation page which says nothing about the issue. Now it currently points to Ireland which is about the Island, again it is tangential to the notion of nationality. If you cannot provide a link associated to the issue then it very specifically underlines the problem. So a reversion will be in order. --Falcadore (talk) 06:14, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Changed Irish looks like British needs to be changed also. Mo ainm~Talk 10:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The point is none of your nominated articles, including your new one, points to a nation. Which one placed in an infoxbox next next to "Nationality" kind of defeats the point. Perhaps the nature of your real issue here is there is no real article to link to which fits your rather loosely defined version of nationality. Perhaps it is that you should take issue with rather than taking on such small potato issues. --Falcadore (talk) 11:20, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

We've now got a nationality link leading to Irish people, which is not a nation, and a flag of the Republic of Ireland, which is simply incorrect, as Carroll does not come from there. Farce. Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:24, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Now we've got nothing at all. Pure genius. "British" was removed with the edit summary nothing on talk to support inclusion, ref's supplied to refute it. A source is here [4] from the official website of Carroll's employers. No refs have been supplied to refute it - unless I have missed a ref that says Carroll is not British or is from a different country. A ref saying he's "Irish" is obviously not the same thing as a ref saying he's from the Republic of Ireland, or races using a RoI licence. Surely we don't need a geography lesson? Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:37, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Appears someone does need a geography/history lesson anyone born in NI can be Irish. Mo ainm~Talk 20:08, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

While you can be Irish, that is not what the Nationality column is for. A New Zealander could be 'antipodean', a Canadian could be North American, a Swede could be Scandinivian, but none of those describers are what the nationality column is for. The Irish Republican flag is incorrect for obvious reasons and three linked articles provided do not to an article about a Country. Removing Ireland from the nationality column is not about denying 'Irishness' it is merely technically correct in this instance. His present series describes him as British and there is nothing to prevent to describe him as being irish elsewhere in the article. --Falcadore (talk) 20:20, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

As it stands it says his nationality is British, I have given a source which you removed calling him Irish so your source and POV trumps everything and your prepared to edit war to keep it there. Mo ainm~Talk 20:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Your sources have not successfully differentiated between Irish as a catchall term and being of Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom. He currently races under the flag of the United Kingdom. How is that point of view?

Carroll has never been described as being of the Republic of Ireland and does not reflect his birthplace so how can that flag be correct? --Falcadore (talk) 20:30, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

And who is making a claim that he is from ROI? Mo ainm~Talk 20:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Whoever has been using the Irish Republic flag. --Falcadore (talk) 20:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thats the problem with flags and why they shouldn't be in the infobox per MOSFLAG. Mo ainm~Talk 20:36, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

So that is at least progress that removing the RoI flag is not POV behaviour, thank you for that acknowledgement. --Falcadore (talk) 20:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

You added the flag, Mo ainm, therefore you made the unsourced claim that Carroll is from the RoI. [5] It's got nothing at all to do with the concept of flags in infoboxes. I'd say the problem lies with people who don't know which country is which and keep adding the wrong flag. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:46, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Because that's what you want but it seems you only want the British flag and no interest in balance, did you find that source yet? Mo ainm~Talk 20:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I want, because that's the only country we can find sources for. I think we have enough sources now, to be honest. Did you find any of your own? Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:06, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

There is plenty of sources that contradict you, and you will not accept that. You have not been able to support your opinion with the source requested. Might I suggest that the "Sporting Nationality" and actual "Nationality" both be represented. This would apply across all the racing articles. Alternatively, we could change the "Nationality" to "Sporting Nationality" again across the entire set of articles. This flag of convenience situation is a problem for racing not wiki, were we go with what the sources say.I do hope that Falcadore self reverts having been made aware of the issues involved. --Domer48_'fenian' 12:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Your sources all say "Irish", I assume you accept that. None of them differentiates between Northern Ireland and the Republic, so they aren't really much use when trying to determine nationality. What do you mean "You have not been able to support your opinion with the source requested"? Do you mean "I don't like your source"? It's a reliable source, and no question of it. Why would there be a difference between Carroll's sporting nationality and his "real nationality"? Do you have a source saying he's from the Republic? Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

According to FIA Super Licence '"The nationality that appears on the racing licence is the same one that appears on the driver's passport. This is not necessarily the same as the country issuing the racing licence. A Frenchman living in Germany can race with a German licence, but the nationality displayed would still be French. In order to race as German, the driver would need to have German nationality as well. For drivers with multiple citizenships, the driver chooses one of them to drive for." So the arguments put forward that the issue of the licence determines nationality is wrong. Mo ainm~Talk 16:52, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

With regards to motorsport infoboxes, the drivers racing licence takes precedence, so you have actually underlined the case for British. In the past it has been the policy of the Motorsport Wikiproject to break the tie towards the motorsport licence. In this case British. --Falcadore (talk) 20:46, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Could you explain what you mean?

I explained it very clearly. If there is a conflict the racing licence takes precedence.

You are obviously very interested in this topic. Would you like to assist the Motorsport Wikiproject with further work on motorsport articles? The motorsport Wikiproject could always use passionate editors. The are certain aspects of Irish motor racing that would be fantastic to have local editors to assist with, the activities at the old Dundrod circuit would be excellent to expand. --Falcadore (talk) 21:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Sporting Nationality Latest Proof

http://www.supernova-racing.com/gp2-series/2011/drivers.jsp , click on "view the drivers history and stats" and it states :

• ESSENTIALS
• Country: British
• Birth: 26.10.1982
• Height: 176 CM
• Weight: 72 KG

The reason I have added this here today is there was an editor who "changed" this in the infobox . The above discussion seems to not have taken place for some people . So I have added this the latest up-to-date information to help. There is no evidence of Carroll ever racing under Irish nationality . On his web site , http://www.adamcarrollracing.com/ADAM/Adam_Carroll.html he states Northern Irish - an apolitical statement . There is no Northern Irish recognised racing nationality. The only reasonable , and factual statement is his sporting nationality is clearly British and should not be changed without definitive accurate proof and citations .Murry1975 (talk) 00:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, and here's another one [6] from the official GP2 website. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Just added hat note to info box about this .Murry1975 (talk) 10:56, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

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