Talk:A. W. Piper

DYK?

I can think of some great DYK hooks for this.

...that A. W. Piper was the last socialist Seattle City Council member until 2013?

...that the orchard of A. W. Piper, a 19th-century socialist Seattle City Council member, still produces heirloom fruit?

...that A. W. Piper was a 19th-century socialist Seattle City Council member who later ran a bakery from a tent in Alaska? (a picture would be great here)

I'm going to try to source the heirloom fruit angle a little bit, and see if the picture of the Alaska bakery tent exists. — Brianhe (talk) 19:20, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Just barely fits, and we'd be able to use the cartoon.

...that Seattle's last socialist City Council member until 2013, A. W. Piper, drew editorial cartoons, including one of a lynching that gave the city a reputation of wild west lawlessness?

It's not totally sourced yet; I believe Skid Road is our best source, plus [1][2], etc.

Also, at least one source says the hanging of James Sullivan, William Howard and Benjamin Payne was Seattle's first and only lynching. Probably a worthy subject for an article in it's own right. Currently only mentioned in History of Seattle before 1900. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:15, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Speidel's Sons of the Profits says Harper's Weekly did an illustrated feature on the lynchings, but it doesn't say if it was Piper's cartoon they used. There was some scolding from a judge and a grand jury, but they didn't hold any one accountable. There should be more examples of Piper's cartoons at the UW archive. I might be able to go do some research today.

For now we should go ahead with the DYK using one of the above hooks.

• The Pacific commercial advertiser., February 25, 1882, Page 5, Image 5. (Honolulu, Hawaiian Islands) 1856-1888 [3]
• etc --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:48, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

The SPL central library has Harper's Weekly for those years, but I didn't have time so search through every one to find the feature. I can try gain; maybe I can find an index to tell me which issue it's in. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:38, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Here is a searchable archive of Harper's (1850 - 1899). I've been putting in all sorts of terms related to the 1882 lynching and associated names, and I've found nothing. Could be Bill Speidel's book has an error. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:31, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

• Created the nomination Template:Did you know nominations/A. W. Piper. It's not showing up -- not sure if they've got a new template system now. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:49, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I see the nomination; you may need to purge the page you're looking for it on. Also it looks like you may need to do a quid-pro-quo DYK review. — Brianhe (talk) 19:31, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Immigration record

May be Andreas Pfeiffer, on the Urania, arr. Ellis Island June 25, 1847 [4] — Brianhe (talk) 21:13, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Also, confirming age 25 (but not much else), Andreas Pfeiffer here: [5] — Brianhe (talk) 21:20, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

This is the correct age, born about 1828. But it's August, not Andreas or Andrew. This Anton was born about 1827. Another Anton born 1828. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:59, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

The age 25 entry that I found is probably not the right guy - it resolves to this, the Weser arriving 6/8/1872 from Bremen. That would put the birth year c. 1847. My bet is still on the Americanization of Andreas Wilhelm -> Andrew William. -- Brianhe (talk) 20:47, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we now have multiple sources that say he was 19. I'd really like to trace it back and see where he went to school in Germany. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:00, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Problem with children's birth years

Oscar Albert's 1876 birth isn't listed in the Life section. — Brianhe (talk) 19:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

The SGS bulletin p.62 says he was born July 13, 1875 but his tombstone says 1876[6]. I guess we should assume they got it right on his tombstone. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:29, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Then-and-now pictures of the confectioner's shop

http://pauldorpat.com/seattle-now-and-then/seattle-now-then-front-street-show-strip/ surely has Piper's shop somewhere in the pre-Fire historical photographs of Front Street. It may also be in some of the post-Fire documentation, maybe even this photograph at First (formerly Front) and Cherry. — Brianhe (talk) 21:24, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I was looking for a long time at those two front st photos and could never find the bakery. I could almost read part of the sign, maybe. This one has a decent view. It looked like the name changed from Piper's Bakery to Puget Sound Candy Manufactory. Or both were under the same roof. His house is in here somewhere. Here is an advert. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Also, the 1892 photo indicates he did reopen his bakery after he came back from Nome, which is consistent with the sources that hint he grew apples at the orchard to bake in his store downtown. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:46, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm certain this photo looking north on Front from Pioneer Square shows a shop on the east side of the street where the last four or five letters of "MANUFACTORY" are visible. It's in the right location according to the sources. — Brianhe (talk) 00:59, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Here's a hand annotation saying Piper's bakery is in the picture on page 23: [7]. Perhaps the dark sign with light letters left of center is the first few letters of "BAKERY". — Brianhe (talk) 02:43, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Expansion notes

• 1887 Puget Sound Directory p 204. Seattle Turn Verein, aka Turners. A. W. Piper president. "The Turner movement in Germany was generally liberal in nature, and many Turners took part in the Revolution of 1848."
• 1867 Pacific Coast Directory p. 256 National fire insurance of SF
  • p. 381 PIper AW confectioner govt. st.
  • p 392 the polices of north american life insurance co Piper W. W. 606 Montgomery
  • p564 under confectioners Victoria --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:45, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Good find. From my knowledge of German history, I suspected Piper's experience there had something to do with his political views. — Brianhe (talk) 20:50, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

By the way Verein means "club" or "association". — Brianhe (talk) 00:51, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• The 1893 Ballard Directory has ads on 3 pages, for Pipers Fine Candies and Ice Cream, at 804 Second, that's 2nd and Columbia on pages 975 and 1007 and Pipers Bakery & Confectionery 315 Yesler Ave on page 991. So it appears he set up in multiple locations after the 1889 fire. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:01, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Ice harvesting and climate change?

It's hard to imagine commercial ice harvesting inside the city limits today. I would think you'd need a solid freeze of over an inch of ice on Lake Union to do this effectively. Does this indicate a change in Seattle's climate since the 19th century? Maybe urban heat island effects? — Brianhe (talk) 19:58, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Though pre-20th century climate data is hard to come by, Climate change in Washington mighjt have some good starting points. — Brianhe (talk) 20:06, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Preliminary research indicates this was probably due to the Little Ice Age ending by 1900. The extent of the Nisqually Glacier shown here indicates that Washington was much cooler at the time the ice harvesting was happening. This may border on OR though, so I'll keep an eye open for something linking this to Seattle specifically. — Brianhe (talk) 20:48, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Property transfer

This is a little nit-picky but probably in the scope of the GA review. "Given a parcel" of land seems unlikely for a transaction with the U.S. Navy. Especially since large areas of government-owned land (i.e. homesteading) was pretty much over in the Seattle area by the 1880s. More likely he was paid for the Sand Point property and bought another parcel from another landowner. Also the article on the air station says it wasn't constructed until the WWI era, after Piper died. Is there anything more in the record on this? – Brianhe (talk) 03:02, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

The short answer is that I read in at least two sources that it was a "trade" or "swap" or words to that effect. Perhaps the Seattle oligarchy made a three-way or four-way swap where the city pooh bahs gave Piper the Carkeek parcel and facilitated some kind of acquisition of Piper's Sand Point claim that ultimately handed the land to the Federal Government. The intent was for there to be a freshwater Navy base on Lake Washington, but that never came about because it took too long to get the Ship Canal built, so the Navy got impatient and settled for a saltwater base at Bremerton. The long answer will have to wait until I review the sources and get some exact quotes. It's a good question and I'm not aware of any specifics on how the deal went down. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:16, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Cemeteries of Seattle is the first source I was using. "The US Governemnt took Piper's property on Lake Washington for the Sand Point Naval Air station. In return, they gave him land north of Shilshole which is not Carkeek Parak.".
• Seattle Parks has a mored detailed, but still garbled, history of the transactions:

In 1926 the Federal government condemned all of "Sand Point" as the site for a Naval Air Station. As donor the park property, [sic] Mr. Carkeek offered to give his $25,000 - sale price towards the purchase of another park site. "North End" groups petitioned City Council for the acquisition of Piper's Canyon (A.W. Piper had homesteaded in the southwest portion of the ravine. Mr. Piper was a candy manufacturer; some of his family became active in city government.) The Park Board was vigorously opposed to this site, but the City Council proceeded and condemned Piper's Canyon for $100,000 plus Mr. Carkeek's $25,000.

• Another version

The first Carkeek Park was located just north of Sand Point at Pontiac Station and was named in 1918 after Morgan J. Carkeek, an English building contractor who arrived in Seattle in 1875. The park was moved to its current location in 1928 where from its expansive beach you can see the southern tip of Whidbey Island, the Kitsap Peninsula, and the Olympic Mountains.

• Another version

Three quarters of a century ago, Seattle Park Board members threatened to quit if the city pursued purchase of the land for Carkeek. Their lament was familiar: They didn't have enough money to maintain the parks they already had.

The City Council was in a quandary. Pioneer builder Morgan J. Carkeek donated land for the original Carkeek Park on Lake Washington in 1918, but that was condemned in 1926 to become the Naval Air Station at Sand Point. He then offered $25,000 for a new park, and, after much debate and hard feelings, the city put up $100,000, which meant the Pipers would be displaced — and not for the first time, either.

• I think I got it wrong following Cemeteries of Seattle; it's a more complicated deal. Will update more with what I find. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:55, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan. I know that complex transfers have happened in Cascadia before. One of them created the preserve containing Waterman Rock, the erratic you documented on Whidbey Island, involving an Indian tribe, Island County, the State of Washington and one or two private conservation groups (IIRC). - Brianhe (talk) 00:31, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:A. W. Piper/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hchc2009 (talk · contribs) 21:09, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

I'll read through and review properly tomorrow. Hchc2009 (talk) 21:09, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be any further activity on the article or the page below, so I will record as a fail. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:33, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct;

• " From 1890-1896 the city charter was amended to use a bicameral system, made up of a House of Delegates with to members from each of the city's now eight wards, where previously there had been three wards, and a nine-member at-large Board of Aldermen." - I couldn't work out what this bit was trying to tell us about Piper... (NB: and "two", vice "to)
• "Piper's bakery was destroyed in the Great Seattle Fire of June 6, 1889.... The Portland Morning Oregonian of May 4, 1888..." - these two paragraphs would be much clearer if they ran through the events in chronological order
• Why sometimes "Victoria" and other times "Victoria, B.C."?
• "After the Fire he ran a bakery" - lower-case "fire"
• "Piper was a Freemason,[6] president of Seattle Turn Verein (society) (see Turners; a liberal German movememt which produced several members of the Revolution of 1848),[27] and member of the Seattle Liederkranz, a German cultural club that sang and danced" - a really awkward sentence - having two sections in brackets in the middle is difficult to follow. NB: movement, vice movememt.
• "1523 Boren Ave." - expand Ave.
• "His property on Lake Washington..." - what property? I can't see this mentioned anywhere above. Is this the same or different to the Pipers Creek farm?

(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout;

(b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;

• Is the SGS bulletin a reliable source? I note that it seems to contradict both the place and date of birth the article uses here. Similarly, the article states that "Piper did not rebuild, heading for Alaska instead." The bulletin suggests that he could not "say no to people", fell into poverty and was forced to "start again" in Alaska. It also mentions the gold-rush, which this article doesn't.

• "He owned a Bavarian style konditorei, the Puget Sound Candy Manufactory, in Seattle's Pioneer Square on Front St. between Cherry and Mill Streets." - I can't see the "Bavarian style konditorei" bit mentioned in the cited sources.
• "A. W. Piper may have been the first of several Socialists or Communists on the Seattle City Council, including Hugh De Lacy, elected in 1937, who was a secret member of Communist Party USA; and Kshama Sawant, who won a seat in 2013 as Socialist Alternative party member." - needs a reference
• "The trees are still productive, and an annual Festival of Fruit is held there." - needs a reference
• The infobox gives his date of birth as "ca. March 1828"; the cited source actually says he was "probably born in March 1828"; circa means "around", and in this case isn't appropriate (the source isn't saying that he might have been born in February or April instead). I'm not sure where the main text takes its "around" from, but if its the same source, that needs altering too. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:46, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

(c) it contains no original research.

• "By 1871 they were living in Victoria, British Columbia where Piper was a confectioner on Government and Fort Streets." - the cited primary source only says that "a" A. W. Piper was living there; saying categorically that this individual was "our" A. W. Piper is OR. This could be fixed by clarifying the text (as you do with "An 1873 newspaper announcement said an ...")

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

Illustrated, if possible, by images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content;

• File:AW Piper at Seattles First Potlatch Sept 14 1883.jpg - this needs a publication date to justify the stated US tag
• https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/A._W._Piper_Seattle_map.jpg - Dennis: can I confirm that that you drew the original underlying map with the road network, coastline etc. yourself? (NB: if so, many kudos, because you've done an excellent job! I'm just a little concerned that it looks as if it might have been a professional map from somewhere, over which some additional text was added.)

(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

Discussion

• Thanks for your review! I should be able to take care of these points shortly. Stay tuned. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:56, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Map data licensing I've added this note to the map file at Commons: "Created with Tableau. Underlying map data from Tableau via OpenStreetMap using Open Data Commons Open Database License (ODbL). See About Tableau Maps." --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:59, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Hchc2009, Dennis Bratland, where does this review stand? There doesn't appear to have been any action for 17 days, and aside from the map file, no edits to the article material for over three weeks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:36, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry I've had a lot going on lately. I should be able to focus on this now. Thanks for your patience! --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:01, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on A. W. Piper. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141116144540/http://seattletimes.com/news/local/seattle_history/nominees/ to http://seattletimes.com/news/local/seattle_history/nominees/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:49, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on A. W. Piper. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131203061753/http://seattletimes.com/html/entertainment/2016278569_cheapfun23.html?prmid=head_main to http://seattletimes.com/html/entertainment/2016278569_cheapfun23.html?prmid=head_main

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:12, 23 June 2017 (UTC)