Talk:1973 Israeli raid in Lebanon

(Redirected from Talk:1973 Israeli raid on Lebanon)
Latest comment: 1 year ago by Huldra in topic Recent revert

Nothing

edit

I found that Wikipedia contained nothing on the biography of Kamal Adwan, Yousef Al-Najjar or Kamal Nasser, all who were killed by an Israeli raid on Beirute in 1973. I decided to add their biographies from an objective source. I have not infringed on any copyright as I am listing the source. I also have their permission to add the biographies. In each instance, the biographies were removed under the pretext of 'possible copyright infringement'. If the source does not happen to be pro-Zionist, that does not make the source less reliable.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yussef_El-Najjar"

The problem is that simply listing the source does not make it non-infringement. If you do in fact have their permission to license these biographies under the GNU Free Documentation License, please provide some evidence of that (for example, an email from the copyright holder saying they agree to license the biography under the GFDL). --Delirium 23:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)Reply

Why dont you just leave them posted until someone complains... you do most of the time and besides i know damn well that no Palestinian is going to object to their biographys being posted on here as a matter of fact i think this guys making it clear theyre pretty upset your not allowing them to even the playing field... if you or whoever wrote the main page cant do it then let a Palestinian do it... Hes right it stinks of unfairness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.173.3 (talk) 23:26, 6 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Unit Participation

edit

Shayetet 13 helped ferry the Sayeret Matkal Commandos to the landing point. And in the movie the depiction of the commandos, some of whom were dressed as women, is true. Ehud Barak was one such participant who dressed in drag.

Tomcat200 28 May 2006

Name change

edit

Article name changed in accordance to the WP:MILHIST guidelines. Operation name was Israeli-POV. See also change 1978 South Lebanon conflict. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 15:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Strength

edit

It's unbelievable that 25,000 Israeli soldiers took part in the raid. It was only a limited commando raid, not an invasion. To be verified--Katous1978 04:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

outcome?

edit

there noting after the results —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.35.146 (talk) 19:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

edit

The image Image:Plo emblem.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

  • That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
  • That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --20:47, 1 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Collateral deaths et al.

edit

It may be that neither IDF nor PLO will give some of the details, but surely the Lebanese gov't did press releases and a UN speech, so we can at least state what they claim (or fail to claim) abt it. We could surely, without resorting to OR, better answer some of the following, and should try:

  1. The Italian woman:
    1. In bed with a PLO leader?
    2. Taking out the garbage from an apt down the hall, but knew too little Arabic to understand "Lie face down and show me your hands"?
    3. Stray bullet?
    4. Other?
  2. The wife:
    1. Armed?
    2. A known assassin, and executed with her hands in the air in the closet she was trying to hide in?
    3. Other?
  3. "During the operation" insinuates but does not clearly say that Lebanese cops and Italian woman were killed in the main-target building.
  4. Lebanese cops
    1. Shot by Barak while they were admiring his ass?
    2. Had their weapons drawn when first commandos detected their presence?
    3. Failed to raise their hands when commandos drew on them?
    4. Shot down attempting to flee, at a time when they might have been able to summon reinforcements?
  5. Other target(s)
    1. "Main target" (probably hopelessly ill-conceived term) was 1st building, or 1 to 3 apartments in the 1st building, but "Secondary targets" (plural) seems to have as its whole scope "A separate nearby target [that] was a multi-story building" and was apparently reduced to rubble with explosives.
    2. Sounds like the second building was the only "other target".
    3. Sounds like the second building functioned solely as residence and perhaps office space for PLO personnel and perhaps families, but incredibly vague about that.
    4. "Bomb" as a verb normally means "drop an explosive device onto", while in contexts that make the distinction clear it can mean "blow up with a concealed explosive device". (Not sure the verb ever applied to such bombs as the Haymarket bomb or notional anarchist bomb-throwers.) Here it seems to mean "demolished with (one assumes multiple charges of) explosives whose immediate purpose was demolition of the building, which in turn was intended to kill all those inside". One such situation would be better described not as
      Despite this resistance, the force was able to bomb the building.
      but
      Under fire from PLO defending the building, the force demolished it with satchel charges, presumably killing all inside.

--Jerzyt 20:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)Reply

Quoting Gavin Young in The Observer dateline Beirut 14 April: 'Madame Clara Morelli, a harmless Italian lady, aged 64, woke up at about 1 a.m. on Tuesday when a bomb blew out the door of her flat. When she went to see what was happening a machine-gun burst hit her in the face.'

'Madame Morrelli was in Beirut on a visit to her grand-children.'

The report lists the false names of the five man advance party.(middle aged 31-47). Three of them had British passports. And the models of the six cars they hired: Three Buick Skylarks, a Plymounth Valiant, a Plymouth station wagon and a Renault 16.

He states that Kamal Adwan was shot at his door. Yossef el Najjar and his wife were 'riddled with machine-gun bullets side by side in bed. Kamal Nasser was in his pyjamas.

Young repeats the 'thing about the mouth' referenced in the main text (Alan Hart). 'Kamal Nasser was a poet and a spokesman for Al Fatah. He was frequently heard on Arab radio stations; he was famous for his voice. So there was a paticularly vicious element to his end. As he lay dead on the stone floor, leaking blood into a small Arab rug, amid the wreckage of hired furniture, the cheap record player, the plastic Venetian blind, someone stopped to fire 10 or 12 shots into his mouth and jaw.'

He states that Nasser was 'a Christian from a highly respected family connected to a fine college at Bir Zeit' and Abu Yousef was from Jaffa.

The Scotsman report dateline Beirut, Tuesday (10th), quotes Mrs Maha Al-Jayousy Adwan as saying that her husband was able to fire back at the five or six men in civilian clothes, injuring a number of them before he was killed. It states that three guards were killed outside Abu Youssef's home and that his wife died when she threw herself in front of him.

One eyewitness told reporters 'he was convinced "a pretty girl" was among one of the groups of attackers.

Following the Jean Genet line : 'Asked about reports of some of the Israeli soldiers wandering around Beirut in hippie clothes, driving hired cars, Gen Elazar drily commented "All of them wore clothes..." and "When we take something we always pay."'

It quotes official casualties as being two civilians and two security men killed.'but an ealier statement, which included references to non-Lebanese, said nine civilians were killed. These were believed to include a 70-year-old Italian woman.' Israel announced two soldiers killed and two wounded.

This report is under a headline LEBANESE CABINET RESIGN AFTER ISRAELI ATTACK - which is a good marker for the beginnings of the Lebanese Civil War of 1975.

I'll get back to you when I have The Times account - as I remember they liked the blonde woman story.Padres Hana (talk) 23:11, 1 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Munich Massacre

edit

Shouldn't it say somewhere that it was a retaliation for the Munich Massacre?--Mycomp (talk) 12:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

edit

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

--JeffGBot (talk) 15:40, 6 June 2011 (UTC)Reply

Civilian casualties

edit

It seems POV to me that only two are designated as "civilians" out of the up to 100. Doesn't "civilian" specifically mean unarmed and unable to respond to fire? It seems to me that a guy sitting in his apartment with a family is a civilian, and so is his wife that "died in melee" with a professional soldier. It's a bit bizarre. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 13:01, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

According to the Lebanese permanent representative at the UN Security council, the list of 12 casualties comprises four Palestinians (the three commanders plus al-Najjar's wife), three Syrian Laborers, two Lebanese policemen, two Lebanese civilians and the Italian old lady. LlegóelBigotee (talk) 03:36, 11 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
edit

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on 1973 Israeli raid on Lebanon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:48, 1 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Transliteration - "Miv'tzah" not "Mitzvah"

edit

I can't edit the article, apparently, but the transliterated (Romanised) Hebrew appears to contain an error: "מבצע" is not "Mitzvah", which is a commandment (in the religious sense), and would be spelled "מִצְוָה". Rather, it is "Miv'tzah" or 'operation' (also 'sale', like in a store).

With nikkudot ('vowel marks'), the word is spelled "מִבְצָע" (mi-v-tsah-[silent letter])

For more information, see the Morfix online dictionary here: http://www.morfix.co.il/en/%D7%9E%D6%B4%D7%91%D6%B0%D7%A6%D6%B8%D7%A2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dreadnought1906 (talkcontribs) 14:58, 28 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 June 2020

edit

In the very first line, change "Mitzva" to "Mivtsa"

- Flegetanis <ericcalebtpm@gmail.com> 192.69.180.125 (talk) 03:21, 11 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

  Done Thanks. Verified with some Googling for "מבצע" and Wiktionary. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 00:22, 13 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Requested move 11 January 2023

edit
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to 1973 Israeli raid in Lebanon. There seems to be a definite consensus for a move to a new title. There is a possibility of a new move in the future if a new article is created about a similar attack that happened earlier in the same year. (non-admin closure) Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 02:28, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply


1973 Israeli raid on Lebanon1973 Israeli raid in Lebanon – This was a raid against the PLO in Lebanon, rather than against the country or government, so "in" seems more accurate than "on". This also follows the pattern of 1972 Israeli air raid in Syria and Lebanon. There is no established, common name for this event other than "Operation Spring of Youth", but that's less descriptive. CWenger (^@) 22:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

No objection... AnonMoos (talk) 22:49, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Why not just change it to Operation Spring of Youth?--RM (Be my friend) 09:34, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Per WP:MILMOS#CODENAME: "Operational codenames generally make poor titles, as the codename gives no indication of when or where the action took place and only represents one side's planning (potentially leading writers to focus on that side's point of view). Iskandar323 (talk) 10:12, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Yes but this wasn't the only Israeli commando raid on Lebanon in 1973. There was a commando attack via seaborne landing with air support in February near Tripoli in February in 1973. This name eliminates the possibility of creating a Wiki article about that.--RM (Be my friend) 21:23, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
I assume there is no Wikipedia article on it? If there was I would suggest this article be renamed to April 1973 Israeli raid in Lebanon while that article would be named February 1973 Israeli raid in Lebanon. Or one could disambiguate with the cities. But in any case I still think this article should still be "in Lebanon" not "on Lebanon". CWenger (^@) 21:51, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recent revert

edit

User:Dovidroth: your edit here, with the edit-line "Per source which mentions name of the operation, redundant bad grammar (Munich massacre mentioned twice in same sentence)"

As to the the first; I have been reported to WP:AE for using a name in the source, instead of the Wikipedia article name(!) See this. So no; the argument "Per source" doesn't "trump" the issue, so to speak.

To the second issue (bad grammar) I completely agree; feel free to fix it (but not by introducing a NPOV name), cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:38, 17 May 2023 (UTC)Reply