Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Retro games/Archive 1

Getting started

Hopefully we can get this task force up and going. Here are some ideas I think we should hash out.

1. Come to some kind of agreement on our scope.

   I think we should have a loosely defined scope that allows members to work on their desired areas, and a practical scope that we'll probably spend most of our time on.

2. Layout a group of goals.

   Smaller goals designed to help drive us towards a larger goal should help keep the task force alive. I'd hate see another VG task force become defunct.

3. Finish up the smaller details of the task force.

   This would include creating a todo list, deciding on a representative icon, updating talk pages with the retro games parameter, and other finishing touches used by VG task forces.

Any thoughts? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 18:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC))

Regarding the scope of the task force, should we aim to concentrate purely on the actual games or should we try to include character articles, console articles, defunct video game companies etc?

Suggestion -

• Possibly set up a resources page, similar to that found in the parent project but more specific to older games. For example, links to fansites that host scans of original print magazines that will help with that occasionally non-existent Reception section of articles. This could be Amiga Magazine Rack, World of Spectrum and Mean Machines fansites etc, remembering of course to only use {{Cite journal}} to actually reference them in articles.

AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 10:58, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Concentrating on games sounds reasonable. Games are a good starting point for other articles too. I've found that doing that opens the doors for related articles. I came across good information about Nolan Bushnell and Atari, Inc.'s early history while working on Pong; Atari, Inc's later history while working on Pac-Man (Atari 2600) and E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (video game); and Eugene Jarvis and Vid Kidz while working on Defender (video game) and Robotron: 2084. Once we've focused on games enough, we can branch out to other types.

A specialized resources page sounds like a good idea too. I'm not sure how we should go about it because WP:LINKVIO prohibits us from link directly to any copyright violations. Some are ok though. Atarimagazines.com has permission for their articles. There's also Google Books, which has a number of good video game books, even some magazines too. I found them both invaluable when working on Computer Bismarck. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:29, 18 December 2009 (UTC))

I'm not a very creative guy, so it is hard for me to write articles, but I'm great at doing simple repetitive tasks. Lately I've been sweeping through spectrum games and adding VG infoboxes where necessary. Also found (and added to) some old video game companies articles that needed them in the process. So, if you guys put out some basic tasks like "Add references", "Add infoboxes", "Add images", "Check references", etc, I'll be happy to do it. One off-topic question, is there a way to list what old video game articles need infoboxes, or need references and things like that? My "sweeping" has been manually, from A to Z, and that is really boring.NeoGenPT (talk) 20:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

NeoGenPT- If you'd like, you can start tagging articles with |Retro=yes in the {{WikiProject Video games}} on article talk pages. Given the number of games though, it may be best to put in a bot request to handle it. You can start tagging articles while we get a better handle on our scope.

For creating the lists you suggest, I'll see if one of the VG project members can use AWB or some other script to grab cross-sections of categories like Category:1990 video games and Category:Video game articles requesting screenshots. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC))

Let me know which categories and I'll make the list (and have AnomieBOT do the tagging, whenever you're ready). Anomie⚔ 21:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank God for Anomie and his bot(s)! I wouldn't know where to start. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by NeoGenPT (talk • contribs) 23:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I'd like to volunteer this: User:BOZ/Dragon video game reviews - I also use it as a watchlist from time to time. :) BOZ (talk) 00:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Appreciate it BOZ. You planning on joining our little rag tag group too? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC))

Well, to be honest, I'm not really much of a joiner. ;) But, I'm always willing to provide assistance whenever I am able... in the meantime, if anyone could help me out here, that would be pretty cool. :) BOZ (talk) 04:13, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Cut off

We need to decide for definite when in history to cut off, i.e., when do games stop being retro. I would say anything from the 16-bit machines (SNES/Mega Drive) and previous generations would be included in Retro games, with anything from the 32-bit machines (Saturn/PS1) and after falling outside the scope of this task force. Comments? AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 10:11, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that anything that is no longer "officially" supported by the original company is retro. But that's just my definition, even the gaming community doesn't have a strong definition. I think we should offer help on any game outside of the current and previous generation of consoles, but we can focus mainly on certain areas. I like focusing on classic arcade games for example. If most of the editors like working on SNES games, Master System games, or Amiga games, we can focus on one of those. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 18:07, 21 December 2009 (UTC))

I'm, of Guyinblack's opinion. Retro or classic is hard to define in those terms, as everything is retro or classic to someone. The PS2 may be considered an old or retro system to a kid who's first experience is the PS3. Games on the N64 are 10 years old or more already, etc. I myself deal mainly in Pre-crash material, which I consider more "retro". But this whole definition is one of the reasons we defined the Midwest Gaming Classic as everything from past to present - everything is a classic to somebody. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 18:32, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The idea of unsupported games being under this task force's scope seems like a good idea to me, I'll just struggle to see Dreamcast games as retro, but that could just be me showing my age! I just fear that every game article could get tagged with the retro tag, we need some sort of exclusion criteria. AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 18:58, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from. Heck, I still have problems seeing the NES as retro, and that shows my age. ;) --Marty Goldberg (talk) 19:07, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Would this help with determining the cutoff? GamerPro64 (talk) 19:05, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The problem with the article is it's only got one source. :-\

That's why I suggest defining two scopes: a flexible one for editors to work on their niche, and a practical one that we'll focus more on and tag article talk pages. So saying we work on 16bit games and older is perfectly fine. I'll help out with sourcing and copy editing on those, but I'm going to focus on my personal list of arcades and other old games. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 19:28, 21 December 2009 (UTC))

I don't really have any specialist tasks that I regularly perform, but when I notice articles missing for games that I know exist I try to create an article for them if I can find sources. I have noticed, for example, that there are a lot of gaps in the coverage of ZX Spectrum games so currently that is what I am focusing on, but will move across to whatever game needs a bit more information or images etc. as and when required. AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 19:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe that should be the first article project of this group? Since it's literally about this group's existence? --Marty Goldberg (talk) 20:34, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with that, the article is in a fairly poor state as it is. Possibly two articles in there, one for Retro Games and another for Retrogaming. AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 22:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Although the DC is technically dead there are still some homebrew projects and it is relatively recent, however I'd say anything from the PS1/Saturn/N64 era and older is fair game. They were the first faltering steps into our current 3D-obsessed state and represent a level of experimentation no longer feasible in modern mainstream gaming. All that said I'm happy to accept the broader view, so long as we outline our limits and stick to them. Someoneanother 12:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

All of the above suggests we ought to be flexible, within reason. I'm inclined towards including abandonware, such as Hardwar, while at the same time also the likes of Predator (1987) on the C-64. Anyway, I'll probably focus on Amiga games since I've got WinUAE and can easily emulate the game in question. Mephistophelian (talk) 07:13, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Task force icon

Could this image from commons possibly be used as the representative icon? I realise it's the design of the NES controller but I think it is a "retro" looking version of the Project Video Games icon.

AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 19:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd prefer something like a generic retro joystick. There's to much crossover with the Nintendo project with that icon, just as I wouldn't want an Atari joystick because of crossover with the Atari Task Force. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 20:33, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Would something like this be more suitable? AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 22:15, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Not bad, maybe with the ball and buttons red though. The green of the text will stand out more then. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 00:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I didn't want it to look too much like the logo for a video game stub, which has red colouring on the ball. AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 09:26, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Very cool AirRaid. I like it. The green reminds me of the green monochrome screens of the classic Apple IIe. In fact, if you add some black horizontal lines to the "RETRO", then I think it'd look perfect. That's just me though. :-P (Guyinblack25 ^talk 01:22, 23 December 2009 (UTC))

I'm happy with it the way it is but feel free to edit it. With the scale that the image will be seen most likely to be quite small I don't think the addition of black lines will be noticed and appreciated by all but a few people. AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 19:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

If there's no other input, I'll put in a request to add AirRaid's logo to {{WikiProject Video games}}. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:34, 8 January 2010 (UTC))

Citing on screen text

There's a topic for discussion on the main video games talk page that might be worth considering for the retro games. About the non existance of sources for older games, if we could cite on screen text. I threw a shot in the dark and asked if it would be possible to invoke WP:IAR on such cases where the primary source (video game) is the only source of info.

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games#Citing_on_screen_text

I don't know what is the proper way to get this debated, maybe we need to bring in higher authorities to analyze the case, but if it actually is agreed upon to be accepted, maybe we could add a mention to it on the retro games project page, so that people know there is that exception to the rules in such cases? (In retro games there should be plenty of these cases actually) —Preceding unsigned comment added by NeoGenPT (talk • contribs) 10:59, December 22, 2009

I posted there. It's within Wikipedia's WP:NOR policy for primary sources.

Also, be sure to sign your comments with ~~~~. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 01:44, 23 December 2009 (UTC))

I keep forgetting to sign as I'm used to post mostly in forums. Got to thank sinebot for always keeping track of my posts. :) NeoGenPT (talk) 02:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Retrogaming re-write

I have started a thread at Talk:Retrogaming#Re-write regarding one or two issues with the article. As this article could well define what this task force stands for I feel it should be a priority to get this article up to scratch, however I think this could well require a full re-write. Possibly should be renamed as well but that is an issue for later. Any input either here or on the article's talk page. AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 21:19, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I did some searching for links that might help with expanding and sourcing the article. Some may not be able to provide anything meaningful though. Figured you guys could decide. I also have some print sources on video game collecting if that ever gets addressed.

• IGN
  • RSS feed for IGN's RetroCity podcast. Their Retro Remix features might be something to check out too.
  • HDTV-Gaming-Lag: An Epidemic Exposed. Briefly mentions tech issues with retro gaming on HDTVs.
• Edge
  • Japan Mag Sizes Up the PS3 vs. Wii. Briefly mentions retro gaming on current gen consoles.
  • Nintendo Investigating Possible Copyright Infringement By Nokia. Briefly mentions retro gaming via emulators and rom images.
  • The Games People Buy 2007. Briefly mentions trend of remakes and their quality.
• Gamasutra
  • Opinion: Neo-Retro - Movement Or Passing Fad?. About the trend of new games with retro elements.
  • Better to be Sexy than Worthy. About retro gaming and breaking new ground in design.
  • Road To The IGF: Bubble Islands' Alexandre Renevey. Developer interview that touches on indie development and retro gaming. May not be useful though.
• GamePro
  • The Reach of Retro.
  • 13 Fantastic Fan-Made Game Remakes & Demakes
  • Next-Gen Console Score Card (page 8 of 10). About retro and classic games appearing on current gen consoles.
• 1UP.com
  • Retronauts Blog
  • Consolation Prize: PS3 and Wii Aren't the Only Games in Town. Retro gaming as an alternative to current gen gaming.
• GameSpot
  • Game Collector archive
  • Tokyo Game Show goes retro
  • Retro games draw artists in LA
• EuroGamer
  • Retro reviews, previews, news, articles, and videos. Fairly loose definition of 'retro', and will cover anything from the 80s, 90s, etc.

Hope it helps. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 00:16, 3 January 2010 (UTC))

FYI- Our magazine archives have some issues that could be useful. Just search for "retrogaming" at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Reference library/Edge and Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Reference library/Next Generation Magazine. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 23:43, 21 January 2010 (UTC))

Stumbled across another source at GI: Retro Resuscitation – Why Are We Going Where We’ve Been? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC))

Development sources

FYI- Edge has been posting abridged "Making of.." features from its magazine to its website.[1] I know there are a number of games on there that I'd like to tackle. Hope it helps others too. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 21:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC))

Another FYI- found some content by Damien McFerran. Some good sources there depending on what you're looking for. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 18:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC))

Yet another FYI- Don't forget to check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Reference library/Online print archive. JimmyBlackwing (talk) has spent a lot of time finding online versions of old print articles. I'm sure there are a number of treasures buried in there somewhere if anyone is looking for sources for older games. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:37, 20 April 2010 (UTC))

Articles to tag as part of this task force

If you guys have a list of articles that need to be tagged as part of this task force, let me know. I should be able to easily accomplish that with MuZebot. –MuZemike 00:27, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

G.I. Joe (Commodore 64)

Is anyone up for a challenge, and/or looking for something to do? :) How about seeing what you can do for G.I. Joe (Commodore 64) - that article has been languishing in its own crapitude for long enough and could use some love! BOZ (talk) 23:32, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Wow- talk about a challenge. Never heard of or seen this game in anything before.

I don't have time to work on the article, but here are some links that may be helpful to whoever does.

• GameSpot tech info.
• GameFAQs data page with release year for NA and EU.
• MobyGames page with cover art and screen shots.
• GameFAQs page also with images.
• Retronaut blog with a whole paragraph about the game.
• 1UP video about GI Joe games that briefly describes it.
• Gamasutra feature on the 64 that briefly mentions the game as an unusual license.

That's all I could find doing a general google search. Hope it helps. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 00:03, 22 January 2010 (UTC))

Thanks - I'll see if I can find some time for that over the weekend. You know, User:Frecklefoot seems to be a good person for retro video games - seen that user working on a number of the articles where I added Dragon mag refs.  :) BOZ (talk) 23:15, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, maybe me finding time this weekend was unrealistic, but we'll see about later. :) BOZ (talk) 04:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

BOZ helped me fix up this article by moving it from G.I. Joe (Commodore 64) to G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero (video game). That's probably all I can do for it. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 13:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - I finally took a few minutes to review these sources, and put up just about as much as I could from them. :) The only one I really couldn't use was the video, but that's largely because my computer's sound isn't working! BOZ (talk) 05:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

G.I. Joe: Cobra Strike

How about G.I. Joe: Cobra Strike? :) BOZ (talk) 00:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Spindizzy

I just put up Spindizzy (video game) for GAN, but I was hoping some one could give it a once over while it waits to be reviewed. It's a short article, so nothing too in-depth is needed. I never played the game before, and I rewrote the gameplay section from magazine reviews and what was previously in the article.

And if a Brit could give the prose a British English spin to make match the game's country of origin, I'd appreciate it. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC))

I've given it a little bit of a grammar check but there were only a couple of things to do. I am a Brit and couldn't really see anything overly Americanised in the prose. AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 21:32, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Appreciate it. Mind if I hit you up again for Lara Croft down the road? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC))

I, Robot

I've been hesitating on asking, but I need help on I, Robot (arcade game). Besides the expansion tag in the "Development" section, I also need some more references as well. GamerPro64 (talk) 23:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm working on a couple things right now, but I'll do another sweep through my stuff at home once I get Lara Croft up and running. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC))

Cauldron

Similar to Spindizzy above, could I get an extra pair of British eyes to give Cauldron (video game) a once over. Someone who's played the game too would be nice too. :-D (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:38, 25 February 2010 (UTC))

With or without a british review, I think that article deserves more than stub class. NeoGenPT (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The reviewer at Talk:Cauldron (video game)/GA1 is calling for a copy edit. Can someone catch the mistakes I'm sure my eyes have become oblivious to? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 12:39, 7 March 2010 (UTC))

I was actually in the process of doing just that. Do you just want the copyedit, or would you prefer expansion as well? I'm happy doing either or both. Also, I've been looking for the websites of the listed references, but have only found a handful; it would be useful if someone has them. Mephistophelian (talk) 20:47, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I just put Cauldron II: The Pumpkin Strikes Back‎ up for GAN and was wondering if I could get another copy edit. Preferably from a Brit that played it, but I'll take whatever help anyone is kind enough to offer. Due to limited free time, this one feels a bit thrown together. :-\ (Guyinblack25 ^talk 20:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC))

Space Invaders games

FYI- I started a discussion Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games#Space Invaders games that involves a series of retro games. Comments/input/suggestions/whatever would be appreciated. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 21:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC))

Space Gun

FYI- I put AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk)'s Space Gun (video game) up for GAN. AirRaid hasn't been around lately and it seemed like a waste to let the article stay at B-class. Here's the GA nomination. Any help would be appreciated as I won't have too much free time the next few days. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 03:12, 31 May 2010 (UTC))

Cleve Blakemore's Grimoire

An article should definitely be written about this game. It's a retro Golden Age RPG modeled after Wizardry and Might & Magic, and is notorious for having been in development for well over a decade, similarly to Duke Nukem Forever. The guy himself is also notorious for his extremist, right-wing views. Here are some links:

• http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/archive/19990117.shtml
• http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/archive/arc105.shtml
• http://web.archive.org/web/20070514125507/http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=1016
• http://web.archive.org/web/20041030174343/http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=1045
• http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/gamebanshee-news-73/grimoire-delayed-again-111193.html

And the game's homepage:

• http://grimoiresystems.com.au/goldenera/

SharkD  Talk  18:50, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Membership userbox

Is it worth trying to transclude the membership list into WP:VG/MEM? Then the 'member' link in {{User WPVG}} would also include members of the Retro games task force. Other Task force memberships could also be included. Alternatively, maybe a new userbox based on File:Retro games logo.png could be made. --Trevj (talk) 07:56, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I think transcluding the lists would create duplicate entries because some members are part of several task forces.

But a task force user box would be interesting. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:20, 21 September 2011 (UTC))

 Done {{User retro VG}} -- Trevj (talk) 11:29, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

UK Acorn User magazines 1982-85 for free (to be collected from Buckinghamshire before Saturday 12 November 2011)

You are invited to join the discussion at User talk:Trevj#Acorn User magazines. -- Trevj (talk) 14:47, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

River Raid

Anyone guys, sources for River Raid ? I'm looking for release date verification and some review. Sir Lothar (talk) 19:21, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

 Done, Sir Lothar (talk) 11:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Correct tense

Hey there all! I just saw that the project was labeled as inactive, which I can understand. But I admit that I had forgotten about this project, and had just been doing my thing. I thought I'd let you know that I've taken up a major task of changing the tense of many articles to be logical.

Most people decide by habitual fiat, that anything that isn't currently in production, is magically past tense. So, they write things like "The Atari 2600 was a game console". So when, why, and how did it supposedly stop being a game console; and what did it then become instead? I have edited truly countless articles about retrogaming hardware and games (being both media publications and works of fiction). They are to be mostly in the present tense unless otherwise appropriate, selectively per phrase, without being confusing. Sometimes I've rewritten statements so as to be mostly in the present tense without flipflopping.

Here's my ardent position, based on logic and Wikipedia policy. The word "is" is existential, and these works and physical products will always exist. Furthermore, they are still a design of intellectual property, even if someone magically acquired and destroyed every single physical instance ever made, even if emulators were magically nonexistant, and even if it was not officially released (as with a prototype). We don't just decide by fiat that something isn't good enough for the present, that a work shall not continue in the future (not that that's relevant anyway), or that it no longer exists. It is only logically appropriate to utilize the past tense for verbs which are actually temporal in nature -- something which is associated with a fixed point or range in time -- such as "this was aired at this time" or "this was made to be that way". Indeed, some phrases in some articles could be theoretically rewritten either way so that the tense may follow, and we can mix tenses in the same statement if it necessarily makes sense, but we cannot change what simply is. See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Television#Lead_paragraphs. Also, contents of fictional materials utilize an everpresent tense as per WP:TENSE.

Thank you! — Smuckola (Email) (Talk) 07:45, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

"... these works and physical products will always exist ...", or so we hope! It seems to be instinctive to use "was" when "is" would be correct. I guess this may be because of a nostalgic attachments to things which are now less current in our lives. However, I agree that the present tense should be used, although it seems that WP:TENSE probably isn't the most appropriate reasoning (discussing works of fiction). -- Trevj (talk · contribs) 15:59, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Technically, the whole point is that no hope is required, but rather that it's just a truism.  :) The physical products are the implementation of intellectual property. We are writing predominantly about the idea of those products and their representative intellectual property, not unlike how people design and write clean-room emulators. Aside from that, I tend to envision it to be a dystopian apocolypse where every last physical device has been hunted and confiscated, and still that fact cannot be precisely known (see also Nazis vs. radios, or Taliban vs. computers). Such a world would definitely be an end-game scenario for Wikipedia itself! Video games are indeed generally works of fiction though. You are correct indeed about the wrong tense often being a product of nostalgia, and it's also of a culture of hubris or conspicuous consumption. It's the hubris of seeing the past as being a deprecating phenomenon, or as if the capitalistic market is an all-powerful treadmill. It's those and any other reasons, that I summarized as "habitual fiat", lol. — Smuckola (Email) (Talk) 08:10, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Task force rename

I've proposed a comprehensive cleanup of WP:VG's inactive task forces (which would include renaming this task force and redirecting all task force talk pages, including this one), if you'll take a look czar ♔ 02:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)