Wikipedia talk:Singles criteria

Radio add date websites: what qualifies?

I would like to start a greater discussion so we have clear guidelines. At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs Cartoon network freak (talk · contribs) asked if Tophit should be considered reliable for Russian radio release dates (but received no response, so starting discussion here). For example, see a list for Lady Gaga here.

Given this has potential implications for whether a song is considered a single or not, are Tophit "on air release dates" equivalent to All Access, for example, or should it be treated more like The Music Network is at the moment with their dates making songs promo singles only unless there are other sources? Anyone else have thoughts? What about TMN too, I think that warrants a clear guideline? Pinging @HĐ and Doggy54321: who have edited this page. Heartfox (talk) 04:28, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

I am not very aware with how TMN and Tophit work, so I have to do some research beforehand. Alas, I think it is more appropriate to start discussions at WP Songs. Do you by any chance know where the previous discussion regarding Tophit is at? Nevermind, I have seen the discussion and will chime in if possible. HĐ (talk) 04:39, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

The Music Network should be added to this very well put together article. TMN has been confusing everyone regarding single releases. The only change I would make is regarding "A promotional single may not have the same commercial success as a regular single", since it may lead to some disagreaments and despite not being entirely wrong, a lot of songs can enter the charts nowadays even entering on the top 5. So I would just remove the sentence all together. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:37, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Removed the sentence. There remains disagreement among editors regarding The Music Network so I'm unsure about adding it yet. I think an RfC is kinda needed. Heartfox (talk) 23:26, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we need two essays on this so I redirected the outdated WP:SINGLE? page here. This one is really well-written.--NØ 09:39, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Much like Cartoon network freak, I am curious if Tophit is deemed reliable enough to cite for radio releases. What about Tophit is making other editors skeptical regarding its usage? Carbrera (talk) 23:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC).

I haven't heard anything to make it seem unreliable. I think it's reliable enough. I don't really know much about it but it appears record labels send their songs to Tophit and then Tophit distributes it to radio stations on a particular day (the "on air release date") for airplay. In their FAQ in Russian according to google translate it says "we work very closely with most of the producers of music content and the largest record labels. First of all, we place the tracks of the record companies in accordance with their wishes in terms of publication time." There's also separate on air dates and youtube dates, there's dates going back to the early 2000s when the website started... idk I feel pretty okay about it. I just think people are questioning it because it isn't used in much articles. Although it says not just Russian radio, also Ukraine, Belarus, etc. I don't have any issues with it at this point unless others note something TBH. Heartfox (talk) 01:09, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

I couldnt find it on the website but the "230 Russian radio stations as well 200 in Ukraine, the CIS countries, Baltic States, Cyprus, Israel, Germany, the US and Canada, which broadcast in Russian" on the Wikipedia page seems like it is the case. Heartfox (talk) 01:11, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion Tophit doesn't indificate single release if it's the only source, since inclusion of "Sour Candy" on the list Heartfox (talk · contribs) linked above, I guess it's like The Music Network and if the song got released only there it's a promotional single release. infsai (dyskusja) 12:03, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know why The Music Network and Tophit are being treated differently, though. "Free Woman" was only released to radio in France but is listed as a single—which it should be—but "Sour Candy" has impact dates in two countries. Songs can be singles in one place and promotional or non-released elsewhere, but it's still a single. Heartfox (talk) 19:02, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Release history sections for Singles

I just saw this essay being cited to remove BBC Radio 1 and The Music Network from the Release History section of a single. This essay makes it clear that the former isn't fit to use as a source for a single release, while consensus is still muddy on TMN. I wanted to ask if this disqualifies them from being included in the release history section entirely. Ping Heartfox as essay author.--NØ 16:56, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

@MaranoFan: I would personally not list BBC Radio 1 in release history sections as it's not an official release by a label, it's just BBC Radio 1 adding it to their playlist. I do not know why The Music Network would be removed; per an email they responded to me "singles to radio" placements on the chart (from 1–10) are made by The Music Network, but they are "officially serviced to radio each week", so that means they have been released by a label. To my knowledge there is no discussion where it has been deemed unreliable; it has just been local consensus on whether that means it's a single or promo single. Heartfox (talk) 19:33, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. I will make changes accordingly on the pages in question.—NØ 19:39, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

FMQB

@Heartfox: I believe on the publications that indicate a song has been released as a a single besides AllAcess, former FMQB, currently DMS, should also be added Songs for Airplay as they work with Mediabase and everyone who curently works there has or is associated with radio and the music industry Staff. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 11:56, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

The stuff listed is just examples; if other things are reliable they can be used as well. I don't know enough about DMS to offer an opinion. Heartfox (talk) 20:03, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Pure Charts as a single indicator

So, I am doing some research to fill "Release hitory" sections, and I came by this article, which states that "A-YO" was sent to French contemporary hit radio format. Usually that page was used as a source to make some songs singles like "Free Woman", "Til It's Gone" (from Britney Jean) or "Love Again" (before its international release), and since "A-YO" was stated to be just a promo single, does it mean it should be listed as a single now or maybe Pure Charts in France should be used similarly to The Music Network or TopHit, so when there would be a single announcement there it would make it just a promo single until it would be released internationally or announced by the artist? infsai (dyskusja) 00:39, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Infsai According to this article it was supposed to be the second single, however there was a change of plans. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 12:17, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

In the topic of Britney Jean, I'd like to add that anyone that was a fan back then knows that Til It's Gone was not an official single. Same with It Should Be Easy, which uses EarOne as a reference, which by the way uses a fanmade cover for the song. Who decided that these were reliable sources for official releases? For example this other Italian radio station, which used to be cited as an example in the Factors that suggest a song is a single section, until it was randomly changed by Heartfox to EarOne without much explanation, doesn't list It Should Be Easy as a single. If the song was indeed served as a single in Italy, shouldn't it appear in more than just one radio station? Pokémon Spears (talk) 17:56, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Credits from Tidal

I just searched the single's credits at Tidal, but since September, it must to log in, so for those editor who created single articles but no Tidal's account, whether can't add Credits and personnel in the future?? Tim96144 (talk) 13:42, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Tim96144: I've noticed a similar problem. I can always access Tidal through my iPad and laptop, but never through my phone. However, I always make sure I'm going to https://listen.tidal.com, as that usually bypasses the login system. Hope this helps! D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 13:59, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Doggy54321: Are you any methods to bypasses the login system searching credits?? Because I didn't subscribed the service, if you create a account of Tidal, it must to force paying, even if it's free, also just three months. So I think it will influence all single articles, including previous articles or future articles. Tim96144 (talk) 14:12, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Tim96144: I've managed to access Tidal and its credit system for almost a year now without subscribing or creating an account once. I've done the same thing with a bunch of other sources that require a subscription (such as Spotify and Rolling Stone). They're all unique cases, but in the instance of Tidal, you really only need to follow my hack above and, provided it stays on https://listen.tidal.com and doesn't redirect to a login link, you should be good. As well, just because some people can't access a source doesn't mean the source should be purged. Technically, there really only needs to be one copy accessible to at least one person in the world (provided it's of high quality and reputable) for it to be added into the article as a source. I hope this helps, thanks! D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 17:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Doggy54321: It still couldn't do this, when you click on https://listen.tidal.com, it runs a message box: "Become a TIDAL member and experience music the way the artist intended", the means is force to log in to use, regardless of use PC, smartphone... any devices so do. Tim96144 (talk) 00:36, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Hits

In the article about Doja Cat's song "Agora Hills", these sources [1] [2] were used as reliable sources for release dates. Should Hits be used as a reliable source for singles? TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 06:26, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

No, there's no dates and radio stations can add anything, it's not proof the song is being promoted. The article is a recap of adds which means the "release" should be a week earlier than the purported October 3 date. The article literally says "early commitments" for "Agora Hills", ie the song had not even been promoted to radio yet. Honestly with the streaming era and demise of sources for impact dates it's probably worth having a conversation about combining singles + promotional singles + other charted/certified songs into one table for 2024–onward discographies and just use the album date in infoboxes if a song wasn't released before the album. Heartfox (talk) 07:18, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

@Heartfox: Yeah, I figured that might be the case. Recently, in "First Person Shooter", an editor tried to add the source to the article and mention that "Agora Hills" was using the source. Should the website be removed from the article and replaced with another source? TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 08:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

It makes no sense at all that a good amount of the biggest hits (especially in the hip-hop world) of the past few years aren't considered singles according to Wikipedia because "an adds date wasn't published for the public to see :((" and it ALL leads back to one user, TheAmazingPeanuts. My hope is that Wikipedia considers being more open with this single criteria, as it is outdated.

I'll reiterate what I said in the "albums" talk page.

Music is an industry. There are legitimate business people behind radio pushes. Radio stations aren’t playing album tracks on their own after the first week or two of release. Even if an artist is getting cuts played on the radio after an album is freshly released, it’s likely through some sort of deal. So if a song is consistently getting adds, consistently charting AND getting promo through sources besides radio, like playlisting or a music video, that's a very big indicator that it's an ACTIVE SINGLE. Playlisting not so much, but that is still an obvious indication of investment. Who’s paying for a RapCaviar #1 spot if it’s a song they don’t want to invest in? Logic, man. No, not the rapper named logic. The “use your head” logic. 2601:1C2:1801:D80:9DDD:F8E1:EE01:B855 (talk) 09:50, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Wow, I see that First Person Shooter and You Broke My Heart are now considered singles. Congratulations, Mr. Peanut. That is a step forward.

Now if we could do something about that criteria... 2601:1C2:1801:D80:9DDD:F8E1:EE01:B855 (talk) 09:52, 3 January 2024 (UTC)