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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Frank Borman

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 10:20, 7 September 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Frank Borman

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Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk)

Frank Borman (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Frank Borman was one of the first three men people to travel from the Earth to the Moon, as the commander of Apollo 8. He was also a USAF colonel, a test pilot, a businessman and a rancher. He's now 91 years old, and since the death of John Glann back in 2016 he is now the oldest living former astronaut (being eleven days older than his Apollo 8 crewmate Jim Lovell). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:40, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by AustralianRupert: G'day, Hawkeye, this looks pretty good to me. I have a few minor comments/observations. Regards, AustralianRupert talk 10:30, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5

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Another astronaut's nomination. Great, I can't wait to see this one promoted.

  • Well I personaly heard about hectares before but I baraly use it or had to use it. So in my thoughts it is unknown to the public. But if it is in the English-speaking world official at schools then I do not have to say anything except to let it unlinked. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 21:21, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:20, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Kees08

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  • checkY Local time. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe use the word 'stimulant' or 'alertness aid' to describe the drug, for those unfamiliar with it? The two astronauts were pumped up with the help of dexedrine.
    checkY Added. Sources don't think it's necessary, probably because Americans are so drug savvy. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Think this comma is unnecessary Scott Crossfield, and fellow astronauts like John Young.
    checkY Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would rephrase to "Testing parachutes to accommodate this additional weight" Testing the parachutes that had to be redesigned to ensure that they could hold the additional weight
    checkY Re-phrased. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I remember the reasons why he did not want anyone to know was because he did not want the press to find out and spin it, right? Inserting the reason he did not want to tell Mission Control would be a good addition.
    He thought it would be taken as weakness. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Didn't they go on a private loop to tell him? Trying to remember if Borman even know they told MC but Lovell and Anders wanted to inform Mission Control.
    The private loop Mike Collins is referring to is on the ground, and is not a special communications frequency to the spacecraft. Several 'loops', or communications channels, exist throughout Mission Control. These loops allow controllers working on a particular function to have a private conversation between themselves and support staff, without having to filter out the chatter of unrelated conversations. Often, controllers would be 'plugged in' to several loops: The Flight Controllers loop, their connection to their SPAN (Spacecraft Analysis) room, and perhaps to another controller. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Logical quotation so comma outside, yeah? "One of the things that was truly historic," Borman
    checkY Moved comma. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • They landed Friday night, but only had to wait 45 minutes for daylight? Mission ground rules required a daylight recovery, so the crew had to wait 45 minutes for the frogmen to open the hatches.
    Yes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Makes it sound like he was seasick on the carrier, not sure if that is the correct timeline Borman became seasick and threw up, and was glad to be on board the recovery ship, the aircraft carrier USS Yorktown.
    checkY Tweaked the wording. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think 'leave the gravitational influence of the Earth' is technically incorrect (the Moon is under the gravitational influence of Earth, after all), but I am not sure the proper phrasing at this time. ever to leave the gravitational influence of the Earth and orbit another celestial body.
    checkY Deleted that phrase. I thought I had explained that the Moon is orbiting the Earth. Must have been in the Apollo 8 article . Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Back to back sentences starting with 'they had', not sure if it can be avoided: They had survived
    checkY Tweaked the wording. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • having only a fifty-fifty chance of fully succeeding.
  • I think the Apollo 8 section could include more detail on how Borman militantly fought scope creep, preventing additional experiments and television broadcasts.
  • Can't recall, should President be capitalized in this situation? convinced the President to omit
    No idea. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think his POW efforts deserves more than a sentence. Whose idea was it? Where did he go? Did it help?
  • For what, why eight years after retirement? On October 1, 1978, he was awarded the Congressional Space Medal of Honor.
    checkY Added "for Apollo 8". It was the tenth anniversary. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was reading into this the other day, and it was not immediately clear: was Frank Borman heading a special commission that was investigating if his sons acted inappropriately? If so, is there any coverage on his impartialness?
    Not his sons specifically. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe converted instead of changed? I see changed as going back and forth as many times as needed, while converted is more permanent. Maybe my grasp of words is flawed. of being quickly changed from passenger
    Often between each flight. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this phrasing is odd, but keep it if you like it As at North American, he
  • Should Cadillac be singular here? plush offices, Cadillacs and Mercedes company cars
    checkY I guess so. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does this warrant more detail? Afterwards he served on the South African Board of Inquiry into the 1986 aircraft crash that killed Mozambican president Samora Machel.
    If you have something, I can add it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • For how long? What does this company even do? He became CEO of Patlex Corporation in 1988.
    checkY It make lasers. (See Gordon Gould.) Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Britannica at least has when his tenure ended. Do we have any more than that? Kees08 (Talk)
    A little. It was a shell company held the laser patents, and successfully sued for royalties over them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:58, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same question on logical quotation comma before publicly," declared Borman,
  • That is all I easily find. There are many references to 'holds many honorary doctorates', so perhaps some can be named while implying the list is extensive? Whatever you feel is best. Kees08 (Talk)
  • What about Susan's Alzheimer's? Seems worth including. Source.
  • Where to draw the line on Hall of Fames? He was inducted into a high school hall of fame; that seems like an easy one to exclude. He was also inducted into the Arizona Aviation Hall of Fame (added) (another source, if needed), and the Indiana Aerospace Hall of Fame. Maybe the cutoff should be his home state, or a minimum of the national level? Not sure, hoping to hear your thoughts.

That's all for now, hope to finish it up later. Kees08 (Talk) 20:49, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

G'day Kees08, just wondering if you'd get a chance to finish up here, as this seems to be progressing well? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:05, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, planning to finish this up sometime this weekend. Kees08 (Talk) 14:35, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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That's the reference formatting complete. More to follow. Harrias talk 20:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • The Project Gemini section relies heavily on Hacker, Barton C.; Grimwood, James M. (2010) which is published by NASA themselves. Can this be shown to have the "level of independence from the topic the source is covering" that WP:RS requires?
    Yes. The NASA history series is a high quality reliable source. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same question for Ertel, Ivan D.; Newkirk, Roland W.; Brooks, Courtney G. (1978) and Brooks, Courtney G.; Grimwood, James M.; Swenson, Loyd S. Jr. (1979)
  • Similarly, a lot of the article is sourced to an autobiography of Borman; same question? Harrias talk 20:23, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Like most memoirs these days, it is really a biography written in autobiographical form. It is acceptable to use such pources. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I would not have too many concerns if these sources were used sparingly in the article; however, the autobiography is the exclusive source provided for 2143/6803 (31%) of the words in the article. The parts about his earlier life are fair enough, and later some of it is used to source Borman's opinions and speculation which are appropriately specified inline.
    A further 647 (9.5%) of the article is sourced to the three NASA History books, and there are a variety of other NASA sources used too.
    Personally, unless you can demonstrate that these sources are considered to have a "level of independence from the topic the source is covering", I am uneasy about the article being based so heavily on them. However, I would be happy to defer to your fellow @WP:MILHIST coordinators: or @Nikkimaria:, who is a far more experienced source reviewer than I. (Note that I have yet to conduct any checks for close-paraphrasing.) Harrias talk 09:16, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I tend to agree with Hawkeye on the memoir given the way it is used and what it is used for. Regarding using NASA sources for information on an astronaut, I would have thought that is where you would start. The source only needs to be independent of the subject (Borman), not independent of NASA. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:29, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Non-sources comment

Image review

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Support from Coffeeandcrumbs

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I have read this article many times and have no reservation to support. I will add some nitpicking comments:

  • Ref #19 – Add |date=February 3, 2003
  • Ref #39 – Add |date=May 2, 2009|last=Naftali|first=Timothy (the director of episode)
  • Ref #54 – Add |agency=Associated Press
  • Ref #100 – Add |last=Carter|first=Jimmy|date=October 1, 1978
  • Ref #101 – Link is dead. Archive is here. Consider adding Borman et al, as authors.
  • Ref #102 – Add |location=New York, New York for consistency. Or remove location for other citations to The New York Times and other newspapers where the location is part of the name of the paper.
  • Ref #103 – Add |date=December 1993
  • Ref #106 – Add |agency=Associated Press|via=Newspapers.com
  • Ref #115 – Add |last=Augustus|first=Bruce|work=SAM Speaks
  • Ref #118 – Remove ISSN for consistency
  • Ref #120 – Time is overlinked
  • Ref #124 – Page number is actually |page=3E
  • Ref #127 – Add #page=5 to the end of the URL for quicker access
  • Ref #129 – Add |date=January 3, 1969
  • Ref #130 – Add |last=Levinstein|first=Joan|date=January 3, 1969|publisher=Time. This citation might work better with {{cite book}} and |title=Person of the Year: A Photo History|chapter=Astronauts Anders, Borman and Lovell: 1968. I wish we knew the name of the editor.
  • Ref #137 – Shorten |title=Our Enshrinees
  • Ref #138 – Use actual webpage title: |title=Astronauts – Frank Borman or |title=Frank Borman
  • Ref #139 – Page number is actually |page=1D
  • Ref #140 – Use actual webpage title: |title=Colonel Frank Borman: Astronaut
  • Ref #141 – Add |location=New York, New York for consistency. See comment above about ref #102
  • Ref #142 – Unreliable source. Use {{cite news|url=https://www.cleveland.com/tv/2008/06/post_1.html|title=Discovery launches six-hour series on space program|last=Luttermoser|first=John|date=June 5, 2008|work=The Plain Dealer|access-date=August 30, 2019|location=Cleveland, Ohio|language=en-US}}. This source confirms the documentary was released in 2008. So probably need a slight rewrite of the relevant sentence to mention year in the "In the media" section.
  • Ref #143 – IMDb again. Use this source for Race to the Moon but I could not find a perfect source for Earthrise: The First Lunar Voyage except for this source which sadly does not mention that the footage was repurposed.
  • Ref #144 – Add |last=Feinberg|first=Al
  • Ref #145 – This American Life should be in italics; it is a serial work. Add |last=Kestenbaum|first=David and maybe |editor-last=Glass|editor-first=Ira

Hope that was not too much. Ping me for FAC. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 13:10, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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