Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2023 May 23

Welcome to the Wikipedia Miscellaneous Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 23

Mary Baird Land Map

https://geo.web.ru/druza/931_5.htm - is there a similar, but fresh map of science stations, both permanent and temporary? Vyacheslav84 (talk) 05:32, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps this one? Or this? Alansplodge (talk) 11:16, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

There are only two stations on the maps. --Vyacheslav84 (talk) 10:18, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Historicity of "arm slashers."

Greetings!

I've been researching unusual terms and phrases that English has been borrowing from French throughout the ages, and I'm now utterly perplexed.

Namely, Randle Cotgrave's A dictionarie of the French and English tongues (1611) lists the term Taille-bras defining it as "A hackster, *arme-slasher."

Cross referencing with the OED, I found an even more idiosyncratic definition; viz., under arm sb¹ section III, it lists (as obsolete) "arm-slasher, one who cuts his arm to get blood with which to drink his mistress' health."

I tried searching for any records of this—in both textbooks and works of fiction—as a possible medicinal or courtship ritual, but so far I've found absolutely nothing.

Did somebody (deliberately or otherwise) mislead Mr. Cotgrave into including this, or did such a thing actually and regularly happen in 17th-Century France?

Can anyone here point me to a novel, play, or other reference that mentions this? Thank you.

Pine (talk) 07:52, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

At the time it was alleged that a similar practice was current in England. This is from Thomas Hall's Funebria Florae, 3rd edition, 1661:

Before men were fanatick and wilde in their Principals; now men are fanatick and frantick in Practicals; they rant, they roar, they sing, they swear, they drink, they dance, they whore, they lye, they scoff; yea, some there are (I hope they are not many) that put their own blood into their drink, and then drink a health to the King, and to the confusion of Sion and its King; this is reported to mee by persons of good repute.

Sounds like a moral panic about Restoration roistering, and far from a proof that any such blood-drinking actually happened. --Antiquary (talk) 10:04, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Here's another example you can believe if you like. --Antiquary (talk) 11:46, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

It seems that—akin to the (much later) Reign of Terror in France, Nazi Germany, and Stalinist purges in Russia—the English interregnum was, to put it euphemistically, an interesting time.

Thank you for the prompt reply!

Resolved

Pine (talk) 06:50, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

How big is a private library?

Library is not a number; it's a state of mind.-- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 18:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

In a conversation recently there was some discussion about what constituted a private library. There's a sort of progression from bookshelf to book collection to PL, but where are the boundaries? One participant was claiming that over 1,000 titles were "legally a private library"; according to whom and are there any legal issues? If it helps, UK usage please! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:21, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

What would be a theoretical definition of a "private library"? Is there such a thing as a "public library" in the UK? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:52, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Have a look at public library for a succinct definition: "A public library is a library that is accessible by the general public and is usually funded from public sources, such as taxes". We've had them established by law since 1835. Historically a private library was one in a private house such as a stately home. Then there are university and business research libraries which have attributes of both, call them what you will. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:02, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

"Is there such a thing as a "public library" in the UK?" it's like one of those "Dumb things Americans say when they meet British people" videos on instagram. Sometimes I think Bugs is a parody of himself. DuncanHill (talk) 13:21, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Goes along with the reported comment from a GI in Naples during the war "Gee, they have pizza here" or else "they speak English over there" which was reportedly said to US soldiers being sent to England prior to D-Day! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:41, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

You're funny, Doc. Now answer me this: You have a collection of books. By what authority does anyone dictate to you whether it's a "library" or not? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:22, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

^{It is injudicious for ball-playing bed-beetles to question the Roman authority that gave us the golden age of Pax Romana and defined for us librarium Latin for "chest for books," from liber (genitive libri) "book, paper, parchment." Recall then this story about the impoverished student whose tiny New York apartment was so clogged by books stacked all over the floor that a visitor asked "Why don't you keep your books neatly on shelves like in the public library?" He answered "Oh I didn't know they give the shelves away too." Philvoids (talk) 09:57, 24 May 2023 (UTC)}

There's a New York Times article that mentions a common belief that 1,000 is the minimum for a book collection to be considered a private library. I can't remember exactly what it said as I only glanced at it quickly and now the NYT is demanding money from me. Anyway, I have over 3,700 books and I tend to refer the them as my library, more particularly some of them as my Lloyd George Library. I have never heard of any legal issues with keeping lots of books, tho' I think there are a few historic collections that can't be broken up or separated from the houses they are in. The one at The College, Ottery, springs to mind. DuncanHill (talk) 13:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The NYT want money from me as well. We're relatively modest, 2,300 according to the catalogue, but there are a few more boxes to process once I get additional shelving put up. BTW, how do you catalogue? I use Zotero (it has the nice feature that it will load the bibliographic data from just an ISBN for the more modern books) with Dewey Abridged 13 for the call number. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:32, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I am a New York Times subscriber. Here is the relevant passage: Mr. Byers cited a common belief that 1,000 is the minimum in any self-respecting home library. Then he quickly divided that number in half. Five hundred books ensure that a room “will begin to feel like a library,” he said. And even that number is negotiable. The library he kept at the end of his bunk on an aircraft carrier in Vietnam, he said, was “very highly valued, though it probably didn’t have 30 books in it.” Cullen328 (talk) 22:18, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

That's what Wikipedia is missing: {{Cite common belief}} -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 08:43, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I use LibraryThing (my profile here). I enter manually, as have a lot of pre-SBN books, and I found that I was accruing too many errors relying on ISBN. Zotero does look interesting for its referencing abilities. DuncanHill (talk) 13:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I have around 16,000 volumes all told, including maybe 1,500 non-fiction, so I suppose my collection qualifies: I actively lend books to friends, too, which is part of its point. About 30 years ago I visited a small bookshop, and realised that I not only had more books than it did, but more books in any category.

I'm slowly completing my catalogue (up to 13,300) which, because I started it in 1975 is handwritten on 6"x4" index cards – more flexible than many databases, but also much heavier! I've yet to decide on if or how eventually to digitise it, but it'll be a few years before I'm ready to, so I'll wait to see what's available then. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.210.77 (talk) 13:54, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I only catalogue non-fiction. Every so often I have a clear out of assorted fiction paperbacks and either sell them (if I'm lucky) or donate them to charity (which is where most of them came from). My library is referenced at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Shared Resources and the catalogue is available online at User:Martin of Sheffield/Library. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

There is a Private Libraries Association, they make no restriction by size, membership being open to "all bibliophiles – anyone who loves books". DuncanHill (talk) 14:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

@DuncanHill: I've seen them before. Are you a member or have you any experience of them? Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:11, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

@Martin of Sheffield: no, I must admit I only discovered them in looking for an answer to your original question! DuncanHill (talk) 14:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I thought this might be of interest here. My wife is a librarian, so I asked her this before lunch: "When is a collection books considered a library?" She got back to me after discussing it with the staff at the library and they believe that a library must contain at least 2 books, but it is more important that the books be available to a defined group of people. A public library makes books available to the public. A private library makes books available to a private group. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 17:22, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

According to Waterstones, no more than six: Enid Blyton Library: Set of Six Books. Amazon offered a four-book library of Agatha Christie novels, but the link was dead. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 18:46, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The clever men at Oxford say two volumes suffice. DuncanHill (talk) 21:59, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

And according to Martyn Lyons, as cited at codex, just one - "Such codices formed libraries in their own right." 199.208.172.35 (talk) 22:42, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Our own private library says: "A private library is a library that is privately owned and are usually intended for the use of a small number of people, or even a single person." Nothing about book count. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:12, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

[Insert incredibly clever joke about how you'll never get a correct answer asking a bunch of men about the size of their privates.]--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:09, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

This seems to be mostly resolved, but I'm curious about the initial assertion of there possibly being some legal consequence of getting the definition right. Apart from collections that are kept together for historical/archival reasons, are there any places anywhere where private collections of books require legal definition? And, more importantly, is there any way for me to get reward money for ratting the OP out to the authorities? Matt Deres (talk) 17:16, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

If nothing else, you could follow them to the police station and watch them get booked. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:53, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Groan Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:05, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

According to LexisNexis "After a thorough search of our resources we have not been able to find a definition of a library. Libraries have existed for thousands of years however in the United Kingdom the first legislation in relation to public libraries was the Public Libraries Act 1850. The current legislation governing libraries is the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964" DuncanHill (talk) 20:27, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Not "private" in the sense of the question, for early association libraries and subscription libraries in the US, Although New York in 1796 and Massachusetts in 1798 passed general laws permitting the founding of library corporations of this sort, it was usual for them to be incorporated by special charters or statutes. The libraries founded prior to the Revolution received their charters from their respective colonial governors; afterward they were generally incorporated by special acts of the state legislatures, and frequent amendments were required to make necessary changes in details of organization and management Joeckel, Carleton Bruns (1939). The Government Of The American Public Library. p. 6. I can see some legislator thinking one must surpass Scheherazade's collection of 1,000 books to be thought a library. 1,000 is the well-defined limit of what one person's brain can hold. fiveby(zero) 21:53, 25 May 2023 (UTC)