Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 April 21

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April 21

My little cabbage

How does one say in French “my little cabbage” and other similar affectionate terms? 2601:1C1:8100:900:B495:90F9:ECBB:CE2C (talk) 15:33, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

21 Must-know French Terms of Endearment for Friends, Family and Lovers, mon petit chou (or if you're female, ma petite chou). Rojomoke (talk) 15:48, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

"Ma chouette" is a lot more common than "ma chou" in the feminine. It literally means "my female owl" but is clearly understood as the feminine form of "chou" in its meaning as "dear". And the chou in "mon petit chou" is more likely the puff pastry that looks somewhat like a cabbage than the actual cabbage. "Ma puce" (my little flea) is another strange one to foreign ears. --Xuxl (talk) 17:00, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

And if something is very chouette, then it's vachement chouette (though that could be outdated slang by now...) -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:57, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Could we say that it's cowly outdated? —Tamfang (talk) 05:39, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Interestingly, I could not find a good source for the etymology. Several theories: 1. There is of course the small pastries called "choux", from which you can make this sort of cakes: [1]. This is the most likely origin for me. 2. In french folk cultures, newborn boys are found in a cabbage (not brought to your door by a stork), so this could be a reference to that. 3. one of the 2 above combined with a general tendency in French to use words ending in "ou" as diminutive and affectionate (kitty = minou, names : Michou, Patou, Loulou). --Lgriot (talk) 12:21, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Roller skating down the aventine

A certain roller derby squad has an atrocious Latin translation for “skate or die” on their coat of arms. Given that there were no roller skates in classical antiquity, is there any chance that a latinist could help them out with a more accurate motto? 2601:1C1:8100:900:B495:90F9:ECBB:CE2C (talk) 15:45, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

The simplest translation would probably be "Rotis labi aut mori"... AnonMoos (talk) 16:58, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

That doesn't sound imperative to me... although I'm not sure if it is imperative. "Or die" is more of a threat than a command.

If you're expressing a general life philosophy, then imperative forms may not actually be too appropriate. There's a fairly well-known Roman proverb or quote Aut vincere aut mori "Conquer or die!" which does not use the imperative. In my translation above rotīs is an ablative plural, which in context means "with wheels, by means of wheels", lābī is a deponent (pseudo-passive) infinitive which basically means "to glide, slide" (per glaciem labi has been used as a translation of "to skate on ice"), aut means exclusive or, while morī is a deponent (pseudo-passive) infinitive which means "to die". AnonMoos (talk) 21:37, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

I wonder if it'd have to be something roundabout like 'roll on eight little wheels pedibus aut morientur?' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C1:8100:900:C16E:C084:52E8:11D6 (talk) 18:07, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

You can use the infinitive like an imperative in Latin, especially if you want to be pithy, and more especially with "mori" since you are not really commanding anyone to die (think "memento mori"). Adam Bishop (talk) 20:09, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

2601:1C1:8100:900:C16E:C084:52E8:11D6 -- the Latin verbs meaning "to roll" would generally tend to imply that the verb subject rotates around its own center, rather than standing on something which rolls, unless a whole explanation was included, which is why I avoided them in my translation above. Morientur means "they will die, are going to die", so I'm not sure how it's too appropriate here... AnonMoos (talk) 21:46, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

gratias tibi ago! V helpful — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C1:8100:900:19CC:F7BE:BAD0:1507 (talk) 05:26, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Silent reading

According to many sources, silent reading was not “invented” until the Middle Ages. Was this the case only for longer texts? Would a person in the first century be unable to read a short inscription or graffito without speaking it aloud? 2601:1C1:8100:900:B495:90F9:ECBB:CE2C (talk) 15:55, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Silent reading was certainly known in antiquity; there's a well-known mention of St. Ambrose (c. 340 – 397) as a silent reader, and he was by no means the first. You'll find the subject briefly discussed with references at Ambrose#Reading, and more fully by Alberto Manguel here. --Antiquary (talk) 17:14, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Ambrose is also discussed in "A History of Reading" by Stephen R. Fischer, who goes on to say that "Some scholars hold that 'ancient books were normally read aloud, but there is nothing to show that silent reading of books was anything extraordinary'" (there is a footnote that I can't see in the Google preview). Fischer also includes an anecdote from Plutarch about Julius Caesar reading silently in the Senate house. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:00, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Not disproving the foregoing, but: "When possible [in a monastery] there was a library and a scriptorium where manuscripts were copied, the monks murmuring the words aloud to themselves as they worked, so that a contemporary described the scriptorium as being filled with a sound like the buzzing of innumerable bees". Exploring Saxon and Norman England, Peter J. Helm (1976). I'm afraid that I can't pin down the original source for that. Alansplodge (talk) 22:31, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Clinician

I'm struggling to understand a sentence in this autobiography of someone who is a musician, teacher and writer with no obvious medical background: "From 1998 to 2002 he was clinician for G. Henle, USA. In this capacity, he gave presentations and workshops throughout the United States and Canada and at national and state conventions." I know that G. Henle is a music publisher. I assume the sentence means that the person held consultative music "clinics" in some capacity, but the use of the word "clinician" in such a context doesn't seem to be covered in conventional dictionary definitions. I also assume that it's a specifically US usage. Are my assumptions correct? Can anyone advise on what being such a "clinician" would entail? Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:16, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

People in the US are equally baffled by UK politicians holding "constituency surgeries"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 17:01, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

The use of "clinic" as a non-medical term is fairly recent,[2] but stretching that to "clinician" seems like non-standard usage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:46, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

WP has an article on Clinic (music), though it's been cited for having issues. But your assumption is correct. If one does an online search for "choral clinic" or "band clinic," there will be a lot of hits, so the term has some currency. I've certainly heard it used this way for years, in the US -- strange that dictionaries don't seem to have taken note. Herbivore (talk) 01:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Contiguous and conterminous?

On Wikipedia, Contiguous United States and Conterminous United States both link to the same article, which says "While conterminous U.S. has the precise meaning of contiguous U.S...". However, on Page 1-6 of this document from the FAA, both terms are used with apparently different meanings ("conterminous" in the second paragraph on the page, and "contiguous" under "Airport Information"). Are the meanings different - specifically, does "conterminous United States and Canada" include Alaska? 82.31.158.218 (talk) 23:03, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

I didn't look at the PDF, but usually "continental United States" refers to the United States without Hawaii (and other outlying islands), while "contiguous United States" or "lower 48" refers to the United States minus islands and minus Alaska. "Conterminous United States and Canada" may have a precise meaning in aviation use, but I doubt that most ordinary people will have encountered it. AnonMoos (talk) 02:03, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

A related question.... Where does the name "Lower 48" come from? Is it just the smaller numbers when states are listed in order of becoming states? HiLo48 (talk) 02:51, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

No has nothing to do with order the State joined. Lower is another word for South in this case. We use the term in Canada sometimes to say we are headed South to the US. Legacypac (talk) 03:03, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

But it's not the 48 southern most states. Hawaii is further south than any of them. The only time that meaning would have made sense was the short period between Alaska and Hawaii becoming states. HiLo48 (talk) 03:09, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Does not matter that Hawaii is further south - so is PR and American Samoa, and for that matter much of the Canadian population lives South of many US States. California is partly North of Canada! There are 48 States generally south of most of Canada. Legacypac (talk) 03:24, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Maybe my mistake is looking for logic in linguistics. HiLo48 (talk) 03:43, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

The first reference I'm seeing is in an Alaska newspaper in September 1959, referring to the "lower 48 states". It seems like one of those little jokes, like when "the Union joined Texas". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:37, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

That actually makes sense. Thanks. HiLo48 (talk) 05:44, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

That usage is mentioned in Contiguous United States, and refers to Alaskan usage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:18, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

This official document draws an offical distinction. I might update the article. [3] Legacypac (talk) 03:07, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

If doesn't really draw a distinction in meaning between contiguous and conterminous... AnonMoos (talk) 05:02, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I was referring to continental which was also memtioned above and is a redirect to the same page. Legacypac (talk) 05:08, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Which is because, unfortunately, "continental US" is sometimes used informally with the meaning "contiguous US". (Nobody actually says "conterminous".) --69.159.62.113 (talk) 20:58, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

This is another document from the FAA describing the operation of the North American Route Program, which the OP's reference refers to. It explicitly (paragraph 3) uses "the conterminous United States, Alaska, and Canada" to describe the scope of the program. Together with Legacypac's document, I think we can say that "conterminous United States", "contiguous United States", and "Lower 48" are indeed identical. Tevildo (talk) 11:22, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Doesn't conterminous mean having the same boundaries, as in "The District of Columbia and the City of Washington are conterminous"? —Tamfang (talk) 05:43, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

The word I've always seen for that is coterminous. Incidentally, in this case it's technically not true; the City of Washington technically has not existed since 1871. --69.159.62.113 (talk) 10:11, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Colloquially, the two terms are interchangeable [4]. There is a distinction between "contiguous" and "coterminous", as Tamfang points out. In the 1930s, the London County Council wanted to develop some Lammas land, which it could only legally do if it offered some "adjoining" land in exchange [5]. The High Court decided that the term "adjoining" meant "touching" and the land offered, which was some distance away, did not meet the requirement. 92.19.168.253 (talk) 12:03, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for the answers! 82.31.158.218 (talk) 22:25, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

References