Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 May 13

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May 13

What was this typo supposed to be?

Here's a paragraph from an old magazine clipping I'm reading for research:

First, the context:

• When Fredrikson won the school English prize, he was offered a job as a reporter at The Evening Post. His father urged him to accept. "You'll never get an offer like that again", he said.

Then the offending sentence:

• But Fredrikson dri ards art, enrolling for night classes at the Wellington School of Design.

"Art" is probably correct, but what could "dri ards" have been meant to be. I doubt "drifted towards" would be right.

I've rummaged around the keyboard to find close possibilities but can't quite see the solution. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:09, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

My best guess would be "was drawn towards" art. Bus stop (talk) 00:25, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

It's an OCR error, not a typo. If anybody has access to newspapers.com (I do not), the original page/text can be viewed here [1].--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 01:05, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Maybe OCR was a factor somewhere in the typesetting process, but I have the actual hard copy paper article. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 12:05, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

If the text was originally prepared on a computer, which I think is pretty likely by the year 2000, perhaps the explanation for the weird typo is that the writer or editor selected some text to cut and rewrite, and was distracted and accidentally selected a bit too much. --69.159.60.83 (talk) 14:04, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps "drifted towards art"? Peter Grey (talk) 01:37, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I already mentioned that, but I doubt it's right. It seems to have been a clear cut, strong-minded, definite decision rather than just drifting into anything. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:26, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

@JackofOz: Instead of "drifted towards art", how about "driven towards art"? That sounds like a clear cut, strong-minded, definite decision rather than just drifting into anything. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:44, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Good Weekend, Feb 26, 2000, page 54, says "dri ards art", and it's a direct scan of the page. The link I have for it is [2] (a pay link). That's apparently the magazine supplement for The Age newspaper of Melbourne. The article's author is Valerie Lawson. Have you tried contacting the author? It's recent enough they might remember what they were intending to say. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:50, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Of all English words beginning DRI, the only one which would make any sense here is DRIFTED. 81.132.106.10 (talk) 12:02, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

What's wrong with "driven" or "driving"? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:57, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

It seems to be viewable here if you search for "dri ards art". Bus stop (talk) 13:09, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Here I read "Thousands of dri ards have been cured". In that case I suspect the correct term is "drunkards". Bus stop (talk) 13:18, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

dri could be Jr. or Jnr, but I can't guess what "ards" mans in that case. jnestorius^(talk) 17:10, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I might just assume it was meant to be "preferred" and carry on acordingly. I doubt we're going to get an equinoscular* answer. (* A word I hereby official coin, meaning 'pertaining to horses' mouths'.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:58, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

• I'm glad you explained that word. When I saw it, it made me wonder which two nosculars you were expecting to be equal. --69.159.60.83 (talk) 20:49, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

You could try. The worst that would happen is that the author wouldn't get back to you. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:54, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

We might as well have equinascular which I hereby coin to refer to horses' rear ends. Akld guy (talk) 23:36, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

To each his own orifice. :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:54, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Double consonants in German verbs

Why do some verbs have double consonants before consonants in the conjugation? E.g. kommen: (du) kommst, (es/ihr) kommt, but (du) kamst, (ihr) kamt. But compare brennen: brennst, brennt, brannte, branntest, branntet, gebrannt; or schwimmen: schwimmst, schwimmt, schwamm, schwammst, schwammt (unlike kamst, kamt).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk)

The vowels before double consonants are short (e.g. "schwammst"), whereas the a in "kamst" is long; this is reflected in the spelling. --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:38, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

We do that in English, too, although there are countless exceptions. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:24, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

FWIW: The etymology of the verb kommen shows that it derives from the Middle High German komen or kumen. The version with a single m appears in Medieval German poetry (and is still used in Low German / Dutch / English). It seems that Luther used the verb as komen in his translation whilst contemporaries - presumable from other areas - have used the mm version. --178.189.192.81 (talk) 16:41, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation of German loanwords in English

German loanwords are, in my impression, becoming increasingly more used in English, at least in academic contextes. Examples: Zeitgeist, Schadenfreude, Über-*.... Is the English pronunciation close to the German one, or is it simply an attempt to apply English pronunciation rules to German spelling? I would like to know how my examples are pronounced in the different flavours of the English language. Thank you. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 21:57, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

See "Outline of German expressions in English" and "Forvo" (http://forvo.com).

—Wavelength (talk) 23:25, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

• I am not sure that this phenomenon is all that new, German influence in math, philosophy and the sciences especially was quite high in the 19th Century. Many American postgrads studied German and went there for postgraduate work. Also, there are more Americans of German than of English descent, so some familiarity with the expected pronunciations of combinations like "oe" is common. For example, the first time I read the name of the late Speaker John Boehner I knew people would pronounce it as if it were the English "Bayner". Yet I have heard non-Americans say Boner (no joke intended).

Where does that pronunciation ("Bayner") come from, exactly? You could give a very respectable approximation of the Hochdeutsch by saying "Berna", but I pretty much never hear that.

Is it Yiddish, maybe, like Bei Mir Bistu Shein, the English lyrics for which really don't rhyme at all if you try to say bei mir bist du schön in Hochdeutsch? Or is it part of some German dialect continuum distinct from Hochdeutsch, that happened to be highly represented in immigration to the United States? --Trovatore (talk) 19:50, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Those are a couple of examples. For whatever reason, German loanwords with the "oe" tend to be pronounced like a long-A, or sometimes like a long-O. Similarly, the "ue" combination will tend to be pronounced like a long-U. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:30, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Any pretense at the rounding of the vowel was lost, but the fronting isn't. The majority of Americans with a HS education would say zight-geist, shodden-froyduh and Oober, which are pretty close to the original, compensating for the sounds we don't have. Then, of course, there's the misbegotten Ritcherd Vagner, awful on several accounts. μηδείς (talk) 17:10, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! So the initial "t" sound in "zeitgeist" is not pronounced? --NorwegianBlue ^talk 20:08, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Not in British English, where a similar pronunciation is used to that described by User:Medeis above, except that the first syllable of Schadenfreude I think, rhymes with "car". Alansplodge (talk) 00:03, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

But Medeis includes both t's in her pron of Zeitgeist, Alan, so your comment has confused me. Anyone who would ever use this word at all is surely not going to say "zigh-geist" (instead of "zight-geist"), unless they don't mind being snickered about as a failed poseur. Do you say it that way? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:52, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

See Medeis' reply below. I was referring to the first of three t sounds: tsight-geist. That's why I wrote "initial" and not "first". --NorwegianBlue ^talk 07:22, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:43, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

First to "shoddenfroyduh", we mean the same sound assuming you are using arhotic Received Pronunciation, Alan. I didn't want to mess with IPA, the conventions in its use are different between Americanists and the Brits in any case. Basically the verb is very close to the German, and is like the vowel of cot, not caught.

As for Zeitgeist, my late parrot, /ts/ is a borderline sound. Like Bach, Loch Ness, gnocchi, etc. Most Americans, especially those who've studied the languages whence Zeitgeist and tsunami originate, can and will say Tsightgeist and Tsunami in formal or considered circumstances. To me it's never been an issue. My father's grandmother was Bavarian, and he also studied German in school, whereas my mother's family is pure Rusnak, which also has /ts/--so I have a familiarity most people don't, and make a poor subject, as I am an extreme outlier. μηδείς (talk) 03:11, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Most English people manage a "t" in "tsunami" (with a sibilant "s") but not in zeitgeist. Bach and loch don't make the same sound in the UK, perhaps somebody who can make sense of IPA could help us out please? Alansplodge (talk) 07:59, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Here is my perception as a non-academic "standard American English" speaker who has lived in Michigan and California all my life. If a German loan word like "hamburger" is fully incorporated into English, then no native English speaker will attempt to "Germanize" the pronunciation. The pronunciation will be thoroughly Anglicized or Americanized. If, on the other hand, the German loan word is not widely accepted as English, or especially if it is used mostly in academic contexts, then many (but not all) educated American English speakers will attempt an approximation of a German pronunciation, with greater or lesser degrees of success. It helps that such words are used most commonly in writing in colloquial English, more often than being actually pronounced aloud. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 08:37, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Medeis will like this [3]. Outliers are highly intelligent people who get on well with others. 151.226.217.27 (talk) 09:52, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

I meant that I was an outlier "ootleeyay", as in the French sense of someone who ootles. μηδείς (talk) 00:38, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I've been doing a bit of ootling myself recently, and I have never had any problem with pronunciations of foreign words in English. I am not sure what planet Alan's Plodge is on, but the 'ch' sounds in Bach and Loch are the same where I come from (Scouseland). KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 09:46, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Confirm [4] sounds more authentic than [5], but still to slow during the part "geist" (in the links, click the left speaker icon to hear). --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 20:08, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

To slow, or not to slow ... did you mean "too slow"? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:29, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone! --NorwegianBlue ^talk 19:38, 18 May 2016 (UTC)