Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 September 14

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September 14

Meaning of a song title

French speakers please! What does "Si Tu N'Etais Pas La" translate to? It is the title of this song. I put it in Google Translate, and it didn't make any sense. Thanks everyone!! 59.167.253.199 (talk) 01:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

My french is a little rusty, but I think it means "If you are not there". Si, when starting a sentence means "If", "tu" is the informal form of "you", and "n'etre pas" in its various forms means "to not be" while "là" means "there". So, "If you aren't there" seems like a good swipe at it. --Jayron32 01:36, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps this website might help. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 02:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you your holiness, that is a great site! 59.167.253.199 (talk) 13:57, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's a counterfactual conditional where French uses the imperfect tense for the protasis (if-clause). Hence it's "if you weren't there", while "if you are not there" would be "si tu n'es pas là". ---Sluzzelin talk 03:56, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. The correct spelling is "Si tu n'étais pas là". Part of the reason Google Translate got confused was the missing accent on "là". --65.94.51.64 (talk) 04:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

How do you pronounce "azure"?

I know of four ways of pronunciation: [ə'ʒu:r], ['æʒju:r], [æʒ'jər], ['eɪʒər]. Of course, the [r] will disappear in non-rhotic accents - the [u:r] becoming [ʊə], but let's put aside the rhotic issue.

So, as a non-native, I would like to know:

1. Do you know of another way of pronouncing "azure"?
2. How is "azure" pronounced, in what part of the world (or where you live)?
3. Do you use this word in your everyday speech, or in written language only?

77.125.92.83 (talk) 01:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

:I would say it as your second one (I think - not that great with IPA) first syllable same as the word "as", second same as "yer", and I would never pronounce the r. I should say it's most often used in singing "When Britain first, at Heaven's command / Arose from out the azure main.." Native British speaker. DuncanHill (talk) 01:38, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You probably mean my third option. 77.125.92.83 (talk) 01:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I meant the second one as the question was when I answered it, but you have changed the options since I answered! DuncanHill (talk) 02:06, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

And the stress would be on the second syllable, not the first - stress on the first sounds distinctly foreign. DuncanHill (talk) 02:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I use the middle one. I live in the southeastern U.S. currently, but grew up speaking New England English. I now speak mostly General American English, with a few hints of New England thrown in. --Jayron32 01:39, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You mean the second one. Btw, do you use the word "azure" in your everyday speech? 77.125.92.83 (talk) 01:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I mean, it's not like I wake up every day and plan to use it. But I've been known to say it from time to time when appropriate. --Jayron32 02:04, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I azure you it's used rather infrequently, but when it is, most people (I hope) know what it means. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I have struck my answers because it is impossible to answer a question like this meaningfully when the question gets changed after people have already answered it. DuncanHill (talk) 02:09, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I would say [ə'ʒu:r], or other ways you haven't listed, [ə'ʒʊ:r], [ə'ʒjʊ:r], [ə'zu:r], or [ə'zʊ:r]. It's hard to say because I wouldn't really ever use that word in speech, but if I did, it would definitely start with a schwa, be stressed on the second syllable, and most likely have a z instead of a ʒ, and a ʊ instead of a u. I would say it rhymes with "sure". I speak some variant or other of West–Central Canadian English (so, fully rhotic). Adam Bishop (talk) 02:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Australian here. It was always (non-rhotic) option 4 (AY-zhə) here, an exact homophone for Asia, but of recent times I've heard a few people say option 1 (ə-ZHU-ə). It's only ever trotted out in faux-poetic contexts now, and most people have had no aural guidance so they make up how they think it should be pronounced. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure there was a "popular" (among teachers, anyway) national pride style Australian song/poem that used the word. My brain cells keep dredging up fragments of it from half a century ago. Do you recall it? HiLo48 (talk) 04:08, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

That would be the Song of Australia. "There is a land where summer skies / Are gleaming with a thousand dyes, / Blending in witching harmonies; / And grassy knoll and forest height, / Are flushing in the rosy light, / And all above is azure bright — Australia!" DuncanHill (talk) 04:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes! With a grassy knoll as well. Thanks Duncan. HiLo48 (talk) 06:15, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

And here we can hear the inimitable, not to mention utubular, Peter Dawson singing it, with the pron of "azure" exactly as I described above. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah yes, he had it right. HiLo48 (talk) 07:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you quite, quite sure? It was Britain that arose from out of the azure main. Rule Britannia![1] Thincat (talk) 08:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Britain arose form out the azure main, in Australia all above is azure bright. DuncanHill (talk) 14:38, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Britain may have arisen from an azure main, but Australia is girt by sea. HiLo48 (talk) 18:13, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Australia may be girt by sea (Girt-by-Sea sounds like a decayed seaside resort in Sussex), but it's not a precious stone set in the silver sea, nor is it scepter'd. DuncanHill (talk) 18:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Southern England (half West-Midlands accent, half South-London). I pronounce it to rhyme with "as your" (with the second syllable rhyming with "or"), and with a slight stress on the second syllable. I'm not fluent in IPA, but I think that would make it [æʒ'ju:r] Bluap (talk) 02:32, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

There's a lot of variation here in the UK. I pronounce it ['aʒju:r] (as you're) here in the north. I'm surprised to see so many of you putting stress on the second syllable (though both stresses are used, of course).)Dbfirs 08:46, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Agree with that (Londoner). Alansplodge (talk) 12:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Central California English (although with heavy influence from Oklahoma/Arkansas) here. I say ['æʒjʊr] and that's all I hear around here. Accent on the second syllable sounds like a non-native speaker or maybe somebody trying to be pretentious. I will say, however, that I rarely say or hear the word in everyday speech. I would just say "blue" or if I need to be more specific, "sky blue".--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 09:11, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

OP's comment: Thank you all. As I understand, the variation in pronunciation is probably a result of the rareness of the word in everyday speech. As a native Hebrew speaker - I find this socio-linguistic fact - quite interesting, because when Hebrew speakers - who are taught English at school - get to the "color" topic, and are told about the pair "black / gray" (i.e. a mixture of black and white), and about the pair "red / pink" (i.e. a mixture of red and white), they are never told about the pair "blue / azure" (i.e. a mixture of blue and white), i.e. they are told about "blue" only, although Hebrew has a very common word for "azure" (Numbers, 15, 38), being used rather frequently in everyday speech, or rather: not less frequently than "pink" or "gray" (The option "sky blue" is usually not mentioned in the English lessons for Hebrew speakers, maybe because it's composed of two words, just as "light yellow/green/orange/purple/brown" is not mentioned). 87.68.215.84 (talk) 11:57, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Our article, Distinction of blue and green in various languages, may be of interest to you. We also have an article called Blue in Judaism and a general article, Blue, in which you may find some pertinent information.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 14:36, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! 87.68.215.84 (talk) 18:17, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Since I don't see my variant above, it's ['æʒr] with a syllabic final r and no palatalization. Rhymes with badger except for badger's -j- vs azure's -zh-. μηδείς (talk) 17:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You forgot to indicate where it's pronounced [æʒr]. 87.68.215.84 (talk) 18:17, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

D'uh, took me a second, I'm thinking, "well, here, of course." Here is Delaware Valley accent. μηδείς (talk) 19:12, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Another vote for [ˈæʒr] (or as I might transcribe it, [ˈæʒɚ]), which I was surprised not to see; it's the first or only pronunciation given in all the dictionaries I've checked, British and American. I'm from Illinois. I do remember not knowing how to pronounce it when I was growing up, and I agree that it's common in literature but rare in everyday speech, in which I would use "sky blue" or "light blue". Lesgles (talk) 22:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Northen UK-er here, who speaks very close to RP. I would say it as /az'ju:ə/, or sometimes I would add the glottal /R/ at the end, just for artistic effect, because, to be honest, it's a word we rarely use. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 11:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

To the person who posed the question, I'd say it's quite understandable why you did not learn about the word azure in English class. The word is seldom used. It is hardly ever used in everyday conversation and is almost confined to poetic or self-consciously literary texts. The word is not like gray or pink, which are everyday, widely recognized colors. Though I am quite educated and work with words professionally, I will confess that I did not know until reading this thread that azure referred to a specific shade of blue, and I doubt that most native English speakers know exactly which shade of blue the word indicates. I thought that it was just a poetic synonym for blue. I wouldn't recommend translating the Hebrew word for "sky blue" as azure unless you are aiming for a poetic tone. Marco polo (talk) 13:31, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Likewise, in fact I would say the only time I regularly encounter the word "azure" is when Italian sports teams are referred to as "Azzurri", and I suppose the way this is pronounced in English makes me pronounce it the way I do. When I think of the colour azure, I think of the blue Italy soccer uniforms. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:19, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

[Incidentally, the article "Sky blue" has a link to this image, shades of light blue.

(Anyone is welcome to edit my post, but only to make the image smaller.)

—Wavelength (talk) 17:41, 15 September 2014 (UTC)]

I added this markup to make it smaller and to appear on the right:[[File:Shades_of_light_blue.png|thumb|right|300px]] μηδείς (talk) 18:05, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

In addition to sparse 'everyday' use of the word, "Azure" was and is the standard term in (British) Heraldry for the tincture corresponding to 'blue'. Like all tinctures it isn't precisely defined – because in practice it depends on the pigments available to the user and to how much exposure to the elements may alter it – except that it should be distinct from the lighter Bleu celeste ('sky blue'). In my experience, heraldry enthusiasts don't obsess about the correct pronunciation of an Anglo-Norman French word originating in the Middle Ages, perhaps because most first encounter it in text rather than speech and because it is scarcely confusable with anything else. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 19:02, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• I pronounce it [ˈæʒɚ]. Pais (talk) 14:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)