Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 May 6

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May 6

Miles vs. kilometers

Often while reading a book by a British author, right now Good Omens, I will see miles used to describe distance or speed (per hour, of course) instead of kilometers. Wikipedia's article on the M25 motorway even uses miles when describing things. This practice confuses this particular American who thought that all of Europe was on the metric system. So what gives? Dismas|^(talk) 07:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Britain (which a lot of people still consider to be separate from Europe!) is only imperfectly on the metric system. Distances are still measured in inches, feet, yards, and miles; volumes are still measured in pints, quarts, and gallons (which are different from American pints, quarts, and gallons) except maybe at gas stations, er, "petrol stations"; people still report their weight in stone, and so on. In fact, the only metric measurement that's really caught on in Britain is the Celsius scale for temperatures; I've been told that most people under the age of about 50 or so don't really have a good understanding of the Fahrenheit scale, any more than continental Europeans do. —Angr 07:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Admittedly I'm well over 50, but I'm not sure that I'd agree that Celsius has "caught on" here in the UK. I think and talk in Fahrenheit, and temperatures are often reported in both Celsius and Fahrenheit. Certainly SI units are used in business, especially engineering (with the possible exception of the railways?). Shops are obliged to label goods in metric, but these are often exactly the same size as before instead of a round number, e.g. jars of jam are invariably 454 grams (1 lb). The UK "metrication process" of the 1970s was a fiasco. Our metrication article is rather misleading as regards the UK.--Shantavira 08:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Britain signed up to metrication in 1972. Since then there has been a slow movement towards it. Children are now only taught using metric units (Centimetres and Kilos etc) and its normal to find that people under the age of twenty have no/very little understanding of the concept of imperial measurement (inches, feet, gallons) and as a consequence they tend to work only in imperial measurements. There is a large band of people in the middle age range who understand and work in both imperial and metric measurement. It tends to be people in the older age band who rely solely on imperial measurement and have little or no understanding of metric. As with everything you can find 80 year olds with a perfect understanding of metric and 15 year olds who understand imperial. Most companies in the UK have now switched to metric and advertise their products in this way mainly due to the fact that it is now illegal to advertise products in imperial units (with certain exceptions like beer which can only be sold in imperial(if you think that's confusing you ain't seen nothing yet)), dual indication (showing both metic & imperial measurements) becomes illegal in 2009 although if a product is advertised by description as an imperial sized product eg a 6ft by 6ft fence panel then that will be legal.

Despite all of the above the UK populace is massively behind keeping the pint for milk and pub measures and the mile for road signs(despite Ordnance Survey maps being metric since the war). Yet they'll happily order a kilo of carrots at a shop and follow recipe instructions in metric. Temperature measurements also seem to be split by age but to a higher degree, around about 50 years old is where the dividing line for the Celsius/Centigrade vs Fahrenheit debate seems to be drawn. Again anomalies arise here. My father, for example, has to convert the TV weather to Fahrenheit but when cooking with the oven he uses Celsius.

Enough of this though the actual page you want is this one Metrication in the United Kingdom - X201 09:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm 48 and was brought up in the world of Fahrenheit temperatures. Nowadays I'm happy to use Celsius for low temperatures - 0 for freezing point is sensible, after all, but for hot weather I still prefer to think in Fahrenheit - a pleasantly warm day is 70, 80 is getting distinctly hot; to make sense of the weather forecast I just remember that 28C is 82F... -- Arwel (talk) 14:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

While I (aged 21) understand the weather only in Celsius, but use only Gas Mark when cooking. Algebraist 09:31, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I think other English-speaking countries also tend to be inconsistently metricated. I remember once hearing an Australian report his height in feet and inches and his weight in kilograms. —Angr 10:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The UK goverment hasn't really hesitated to enforce metrication on the population. For instance, you can no longer buy pints of milk. However, I buy milk in containers of 1.136 litres. It can additionally say "2 pints", but not first, and not larger than the litre size. Tesco solve this by just putting a large "2" on the packaging (without units). However, this cost is borne by the private sector; the government sometimes hesitates when the cost must be borne by itself. Still, it would have converted road measurements to kilometres if not for the potential for disaster. Imagine the havoc, half-way through the conversion, when nobody knows which units are used. Better still, think of the speed limit signs. Is that 50 in mph or km/h? This could be managed with dual signage, but I cannot imagine that the transition would improve safety. Also consider: there are campaigns to tell you that 30 mph is a safe speed limit, and driving at 31 mph is dangerous. Should the new speed limit be 48.3 km/h? Hard to do a quick check. But should it be 50 km/h? That would imply a 3% increase in the speed limit, and suddenly 31 mph would be safe. It's all politics. Notinasnaid 12:27, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The Republic of Ireland finally switched all its road signs from miles to kilometres only a couple of years ago - I think there's some obvious difference, such as "km" to distinguish mile from kilometre speed limits. -- Arwel (talk) 14:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I lived in Dublin for a few months in 2000, and I seem to remember it not being a very obvious difference at all. It was something like: if it was white characters on a green background, it was in kilometers, and if it was black characters on a white background, it was in miles. Not very intuitive for visitors and new arrivals. —Angr 15:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

2000 was before the speed-limit signs were converted, Angr, although after the distance signs had been. These were done gradually in the 80s. Previously distance signs were black-on-white in miles like this; then main roads switched to white-on-green in kilometres; then minor routes to black-on-white in kilometres. The latter were of a different shape and font from the same-colour mile signs and were generally changes all in one go in a given district, with "Ballyporeen 16" replaced by "Ballyporeen 26 km". This reduced confusion but of course did not eliminate it. The speed-limit change, as Arwell says, was putting "km/h" under the number like these but not held by senior government members. I think "max clearance" signs are still variable; recently I've seen yellow-diamond imperial, yellow-diamond metric+imperial, and red-triangle metric signs. See also Road signs in the Republic of Ireland, thoough most pictures of signs are at Roads in Ireland.jnestorius^(talk) 15:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I am an American, and I rented (hired) a car in England a few years ago. I remember seeing speed-limit signs along the road and assuming that they were in km/hour. But I quickly realized that I was driving ridiculously slowly and that people were eager to get around me. It was a surprise. Marco polo 14:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Here in the USA, the only things you can buy in metric are Coke and cocaine. :) --TotoBaggins 20:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

In Australia, my experience is that most everybody is fully metricated. The rare exceptions include: (a) police descriptions of missing alleged felons, whose approximate height and weight are often given in both systems; and (b) the weight and length of new-born babies are almost universally given in pounds/ounces and inches only. This applies even where the parents were born well after the introduction of the metric system and generally have little understanding of the old system for other uses. JackofOz 22:23, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Coke? I buy Coke in 12 ounce cans.  :) But I also buy wine in .7 liter bottles. Corvus cornix 21:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone, for the excellent repsonse that this question has received! I had no idea the UK was so mixed up when it came to metrication. I also find it interesting that, unless I missed one, all the talk of miles per hour was abbreviated as "mph" while kilometers per hour was abbreviated as "km/h". Dismas|^(talk) 07:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I always write "kph".  :) JackofOz 12:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, its an odd situation to say the least. Just basically remember that anything formal/accurate should be given in metric, and anything casual has the option of being imperial. For example, as it stands now, most people prefer to give their height to friends in feet/inches, but a doctor will measure it in centimeters.

As a bricklayer, I used to discuss with clients a wall thats roughly 15 feet long, but would always use millimetres when actually building it.

As has already been said though, youngsters are growing up with metric more and more, so hopefully we'll get a one system state before too long. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.145.240.67 (talk) 14:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

In Canada, people my age (up to 30 I suppose) seem to use feet and inches to measure the height of a person, pounds/ounces/etc for almost all weights, and Fahrenheit to measure the temperature of water. Everything else is metric. I vaguely understand distance in miles and air temperature in Fahrenheit, thanks to American television and the necessity of occasionally driving to the US. My parents' generation still uses imperial measurements more often though. Adam Bishop 15:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I am an 18-year old Briton, and I know most of my generation uses metric measurements for most things. I still think of my height in feet, but weigh myself in kilograms and stone. and i definitely use miles (i always forget that my car has a secondary speedometer in km/h.

From today, it's legal again in the UK to advertise weights in imperial measures again. --Alex16zx 10:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I might be repeating what has already been said, but:

• Weather forecasts are almost invariably given in degrees Celsius here in the UK (apart from those printed in some of the more conservative newspapers, such as the Daily Mail, which has a readership of high median age). Forecasts in all media that are in degrees Celsius almost always give equivalents in degrees Fahrenheit for older viewers and readers.
• Petrol (= US "gasoline") must be sold in litres by law, but other commodities can legally be sold in units on either the metric or the imperial ("British") scale.
• People almost invariably refer to their weight in stones and pounds (1 stone = 14 pounds; "10 stone 3" means 143 pounds; "stone" is invariable when used as a unit) rather than kilograms, and tend give their height in feet and inches.
• Children are taught the metric system at school (at least, I was, but then it metrication was at its height) but pick up the imperial system either by experience or from their parents or other adults.
• Distances and speed limits on roads are given in miles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paul G (talk • contribs) 16:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Actually, nothing has changed about the legality of current units. All that has been ruled [1] is that current system will continue, when it was planned that the sale of goods in anything other than metric units would become illegal in 2009. Currently, as was the case last month, and the month before, it is perfectly legal to sell things in pounds and ounces. What is illegal, and was illegal before, is to not advertise, or be able to sell, goods in metric units. The so-called 'metric martyrs' were convicted not of selling goods in lb and oz, but of failing to be able to sell goods in kg. They not only didn't provide a price in kg, meaning people couldn't compare prices to get an idea of what the best deal was, their scales didn't have metric units on them, only imperial, so if someone had wanted to buy 1kg of carrots, they couldn't. They could only buy them in a non-standard unit, one that is becoming increasingly unfamiliar to the younger generation.

Also, it is worth bearing in mind that while Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett are English, they both write fairly American. So, while accounts of what it is like in England will generally be fairly accurate, you can't necessarily use their writing to draw conclusions about British-English usage. :-) Skittle 23:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Dropping of final e in Italian

Does anyone know of a Wikipedia article that treats the dropping of final e in Italian? I would like to research this (in terms of when it is done (is it optional or required?), why (for euphony, perhaps?) and if this idea has a specific name) so that we can treat it properly in Wiktionary.

Some examples:

• Eppur si muove (attributed to Galileo in defence of heliocentrism; "eppur" is, in full, "eppure")
• Various set phrases beginning with far (from "fare", to do, to make), such as "far piangere qualcuno" (to make someone cry)
• "la maggior parte" (most, the majority of; from "maggiore", a comparative of "grande", large, big)

I'm not talking about e being dropped in pronominal verbs (eg, "lavarsi" [to wash (oneself)] or "farsela" [to manage, to succeed]) but rather when it is dropped from a separate word. These ideas might well be related, however, or one and the same concept.

Thanks for any help. — Paul G 09:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Well one word for it is apocope, though I don't know if that word is used in Italian. So far as I know it's never mandatory. —Tamfang 17:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Judging from Italian wikipedia, it is so used (cited examples include qual[e] and fior[e]). Some explanations: [2] [3] (JSTOR subscription required for second link.) The Southern Italian dialects heard among Italian-Americans feature more widespread apocope. Wareh 13:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks very much. I see that the related adjective is "apocopic", so I'm going to propose that Wiktionary uses "apocopic form of ..." for these forms. — Paul G 16:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

closed/close

the door is close.

the door is closed.

is the meaning the same or different? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.1.87.36 (talk) 09:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

different.66.188.211.154 10:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The door is close means: the door is near-by (not far off), or, in other words, the speaker, the audience, or some other focus of attention, is not far from the door. The door is closed means that the door is not open. The meanings are completely independent, and all combinations are possible: a door can be close and closed, or close and open, or far off and closed, or far off and open.  --Lambiam^Talk 10:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

It's probably worth pointing out to the questioner that both these words can be either adjectives or verbs, which have different meanings, and, in the case of "close", a different pronunciation. In the first example above, "close" can only be an adjective, but in the second it could be either, depending on context, e.g. "the door is quietly closed" (verb) or "the door is still closed" (adjective), or even "the door is firmly closed" in which it could be either.--Shantavira 12:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, the pronunciation is different for the verb "close", meaning "shut" (IPA: klouz) and its form "closed" (klouzd) than it is for the adjective "close", meaning "near" (IPA: klous). Marco polo 14:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Something very odd, however, is that these two do mean the same, or nearly the same, thing:

"The door is open."

"The door is opened."

StuRat 17:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

But "The door is opened" is odd in most varieties of English. 'Opened' is a past participle, and hardly exists as an independent adjective, unlike 'closed'. --ColinFine 22:51, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the rules for "opened" and "closed" are strangely non-symmetrical. I've also seen "The door was opened" used to mean either that it had gone from closed to open at some point in the past or that it was open at the moment. StuRat 02:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting that we talk about doors being open or closed, when what's really open or closed is not the door itself but the doorway. JackofOz 03:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The thing is that close (nearby) and closed (shut) are unrelated, as far as I know. Whereas to be open is the result of having been opened.Storeye 05:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You can also close (shut) a door - X201 07:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Though that's pronounced differently (naturally!) Algebraist 09:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to add another question: has the word "CLOSE" ever meant "NOT OPEN"? If so, then, what dictionary cites the meaning? thank you. You have all been helpful. I am expecting a reply.Carlrichard 14:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

What's the verb/word?

If a principal expels a student, what do you call it when the principal un-expels the student and allows him to come back to school? --Kaypoh 12:30, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... "Impels"? No. "Repels"? No. "Readmits", maybe? —Angr 12:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd go with "readmits." Recury 22:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Pardons, perhaps? Storeye 05:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

My guess is that he "retains" or maybe "accepts the student back".

Derren Brown

Hi, I've been studying a bit about accents, and I would like to know what specific accent Derren Brown has, if any (if you are not familiar with his voice, search his name on YouTube). Thanks! --203.208.110.207 14:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

To this American, he sounds like anyone in southern England. —Tamfang 17:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

He sounds like a Londoner to me. Which is very unsurprising considering he is from South London. --Phydaux 18:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

And specifically, it would be a South London accent. London has a number of accents, apparently, though they all sound the same to us scousers. Scouse Mouse - 日英翻訳 08:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Below Birmingham, we Merseysiders (and other Northerners for that matter) can only really distinguish between South-East and South-West accents! --Alex16zx 10:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Which Dutch bookseller accepts credit cards?

I want to buy a dutch english picture book for children. I know it exists or did, because I bought several for my kids thirty years or so ago. Richard Scarry had one in English , Nederlands and French. The Berenstein books were available in Dutch. Who is a Dutch Internet bookseller, boekhandelaar, Who will accept my credit card.? I can just barely cope with business Dutch but I know they all speak English. Just might buy myself another Kookboek too.Sesquepedalia 16:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Selexyz is a Dutch Internet bookseller that accepts MasterCard and Visa. Their website is Dutch only.  --Lambiam^Talk 16:58, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Bol.com is the largest Dutch Internet bookseller. They also sell second-hand books. Skarioffszky 09:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

languages with the greatest number of words.

Where can I find a list of the languages with the greatest numbers of words? I'm looking for one with the languages listed in order of the size of the lexicon, but also one where I can look up a given language and find how many words it has in it. In particular, I would like to know how many words there are in Arabic and Farsi (Persian). The Mad Echidna 21:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

English has the greatest number of words, over a billion, as it has loanwords from every language.--Kirby♥time 21:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually the OED lists around 500,000 with a very inclusive policy, see Number of words in the English language.--killing sparrows ^(chirp!) 21:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC) And this site show the total approaching one million!--killing sparrows ^(chirp!) 22:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

That only counts headwords.--Kirby♥time 22:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The number you claimed is still off by a factor of one thousand. Do you have a source for your claim, or did you just make it up and then present it here as a fact?  --Lambiam^Talk 11:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This article on lexica describes how someone estimated that Steingass’s (obsolete and unreliable) Arabic dictionary contains about 9600 three consonant root entries, while finding about 23 words (headwords?) for every 8 root entries. Combining these two gives an estimate of (23/8)×9600 = 27600 words. The method used was to count the number of words on every 200th page in a dictionary of between 1200 and 1400 pages. While these numbers do not sound implausible, in Arabic you can, for example, form nouns from the three consonant root verbs in a regular way, and many of the resulting words are considered verb forms in Arabic and may not have a separate mention or entry, while the corresponding noun in English usually will have its own entry, even for regularly formed words derived from verbs, like baker and thatcher. For such reasons comparisons of the lexical size between languages are precarious; for example, Turkish has a single word Çekoslovakyalılaştıramadıklarımızdanmışsınız meaning "You are one of those we couldn't turn into a Czechoslovakian", but you won't find that in a dictionary. I did not spot data for the size of the Persian lexicon, but if you have a good dictionary and a fair amount of patience and determination, you can go through the same exercise yourself.  --Lambiam^Talk 23:30, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Çekoslovakyalılaştıramadıklarımızdanmışsınız? That was in my dictionary! Remarkable, some of the stuff they give us at school! Scouse Mouse - 日英翻訳 08:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Then your dictionary must be one of those where we can also find an entry for the word Mükemmelliyetçileştiricileştiriveremeyeceklerimizdenmişçesine.  --Lambiam^Talk 11:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a good article about why it is impossible to compare the number of words in different languages. That English is the largest language is an oft-heard claim, at least in the English-speaking world. There is a kernel of truth in it, in that there is a large number of actively used synonyms for many words in the English language; but it is also a false claim for reasons mentioned in the article and in Lambiam's excellent post above. --Bonadea 14:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(1)It depends on what you mean by word. (2) Playing Scrabble, you can often take a gamble by adding un- in front of an adjective. In a large single-volume dictionary, there will be many plausible such formations which are included, and as many which are excluded, based on some more-or-less arbitrary decision of the compiler. unbreachable? unthorny? unwhipped? unsilly? jnestorius^(talk) 15:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You can get a truly infinite amount if you allow things like scientific nomenclature. IUPAC nomenclature allows chemical compounds of any size to be given a name. --Pyroclastic 04:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)