Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 June 30

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June 30

NATO withdrawal timeline and terminology

The current version of Withdrawal from NATO somehow suggests that the 20 year waiting period is to be counted from 1949, not from the time of accession of a particular Party (no mention of 20 years in the lead and the unsourced interpretation in the procedure paragraph: "This means that after 20 years since the signing of the treaty which was in 1949, thus 1969"). At least the last source for Montenegro suggests otherwise and mentions the date 2037, not the best source for law interpretation. I have also a more terminological doubt about the "France withdrawal" in 1966. This article uses "downgraded France's membership in NATO and withdrew France from the U.S.-led military command", NATO uses "withdrawal of France from NATO's military structure", and History of NATO has the title "Partial withdrawal of France", the treaty uses the more technical and less ambiguos "cease to be a Party" and "denunciation", not applicable in this case. Because of my poor familiarity with English and Legalese, I'm wondering if these expressions are all fine. 176.247.205.159 (talk) 00:02, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

"Under the customary rule of interpretation, Article 13 of the North Atlantic Treaty is generally interpreted in such a way that, because the Treaty has already been in force for more than 20 years, new Parties may cease to be Parties to the Treaty at any time with a one-year notice period."^[1]  --Lambiam 07:41, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

What is money laundering in context to Bradford community?

This BBC news report about an alleged money laundering case includes following statement. (Also published by few Pakistan media).

I did not get it's context properly for following sentence

".. Andy Lewis, head of civil recovery at the NCA, said: "Taking the proceeds of crime off individuals such as these brothers is particularly significant for the Bradford community. .."

a) I am not used to phrase 'crime off', what does that mean ?

b) ".. particularly significant for the Bradford community ..", significant in what sense? The officer likely means here is it is usual or unusual or something else?

c) Any other likely context to above generalized comment ?

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 07:32, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

The sentence should be parsed as "Taking  the-proceeds-of-crime  off individuals ...", in which "off" means "away from". The proceeds of their crime are taken away from the Akhtar brothers.  --Lambiam 07:59, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh it was so! many thanks Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:19, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I think the phrase "significant for the Bradford community" just means that defeating criminal activity benefits the whole town. A possible subtext is that he is heading off any allegation that the police are unfairly targetting the large Asian community in Bradford. See One city, two cultures: Bradford's communities lead parallel lives for context. Alansplodge (talk) 10:36, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Did Romans remember

Did Latins / Romans remember that they were not autochthonous to Italy and that their forefathers had come from another land? Ghirla^-трёп- 21:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

That could depend on how many of them knew what autochthonous means. --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

They knew that the Etruscans spoke a very different language than Latin... AnonMoos (talk) 23:01, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

They didn't regard themselves as autochthonous.

Arms, and the man I sing, who, forc'd by fate,
And haughty Juno's unrelenting hate,
Expell'd and exil'd, left the Trojan shore.
Long labours, both by sea and land, he bore,
And in the doubtful war, before he won
The Latian realm, and built the destin'd town;
His banish'd gods restor'd to rites divine,
And settled sure succession in his line,
From whence the race of Alban fathers come,
And the long glories of majestic Rome.

DuncanHill (talk) 00:31, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Romulus and Remus came from Old Latium, the Romans believed, and then something about a Golden Bough which meant they were descended from Trojans (in what's now Turkey) and a bunch of Greek metaphysical beings.  Card Zero  (talk) 00:33, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

The original Romans were Latins, an Italic tribe. Just like the other Italic tribes, they had moved into Italy from across the Alps, settling in Latium about 1000 BCE, give or take a century. There is no indication that the ancient Romans were aware of the fact that their forebears arrived in Latium after trekking south.  --Lambiam 07:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

That's my impression too. So the Latins were more oblivious than the Greeks (who seem to have retained some dim recollection of the migration) and much more oblivious than the Indians (with their awareness of the Aryan invasion)... --Ghirla^-трёп- 12:08, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo -- I think that the ancient Greeks mainly remembered the Dorian invasion, though they also knew about the earlier presence of Pelasgians. And the earliest Hindu religious texts (such as the Rig-Veda) are about chariot-fighting animal-herders in the Punjab, but I don't think there's any memory of them having arrived there by migrating south from Central Asia (something which is vocally denied by some modern Hindu nationalists). AnonMoos (talk) 22:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

We Britons are, of course, descended from Brutus of Troy, who arrived on the shores of Albion, defeated the giant Gogmagog and founded the city of Trinovantum, now known as London. History is a lot more fun when you can just make it up. Alansplodge (talk) 13:43, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

The Brutus family tree includes such characters as Locrine, Gorboduc, Gwendolene and Greenshield from The Faerie Queene, and King Lear and his three daughters. There's also Hudibras, and Bladud is in a couple of novels and one Nintendo game. It's good source material.  Card Zero  (talk) 14:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Looking at Corded_Ware_culture#Genetic studies, there's only a 20–32% contribution in modern Southern Europeans of so-called "steppe ancestry" in the DNA. So your mention of Romans having come from the Proto-Indo-European homeland relates more to the Roman minds than to their bodies. (Though, of course, moderns aren't Romans, but close enough?)  Card Zero  (talk) 14:30, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

On a long enough timescale, the autochthonous peoples are immigrants, too.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 07:43, 2 July 2022 (UTC)