Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 February 18

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February 18

Distribution of animal products to supermarkets based on type

In many non-Asian American supermarkets, pig feet and beef tripe may be sold, but chicken feet and pig ear and animal blood curd seem to be exclusive to Asian-American supermarkets. Do Asian-American supermarkets receive all the animal meat byproducts? Or are most bones and organ meats fed to the dogs or made into plant fertilizer? 166.216.159.13 (talk) 15:51, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Dried blood is a thing. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:59, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

(e/c) Retail establishments like stores are re-sellers; they do not normally process any goods at all. In a case like this, a slaughterhouse has despatched the animals and sold some quantity to a butcher shop who has further processed it. They would then sell it either directly to a store (which is common with specialty items and 'ethnic foods') or to a foodservice DC, who in turn sells to restaurants and stores. At each of those points, purchasers have an opportunity to buy what they want and leave other things behind, just as you do in the grocery store. They may also to save a bit of money by buying a whole thing (like a whole chicken) and removing the bits they don't want themselves, but this generally gets less common the further away you get from the source. Matt Deres (talk) 16:03, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

That probably explains the situation in the USA correctly (which was the question) but in many other countries there is a butcher's counter in the supermarket and an area behind where carcasses are cut up. In Europe there are very strict regulations about handling offal (not always respected), so that kidneys and liver would be delivered to the retailer separately from the carcasses. I can buy a pig's ear from my independent butcher if I ask in advance, otherwise he will throw it away, but I don't think you could often buy one from a supermarket in Britain. You could buy a pig's ear in a supermarket in France. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:24, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

If I understand what you've written correctly, that seems very wasteful. If your butcher typically throws out the pig ears, why would he buy them? (I mean, I understand that when he buys them they're still attached to the pig or half-pig or whatever he's ordered, but the point still stands). In North America, the marketing line is that every part of the pig gets used except the oink, meaning that the animal is processed in such a way so that very little gets wasted. Pigs ears would be trimmed and sold separately (perhaps ground into pet feed). Matt Deres (talk) 13:56, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Meat processing is a multi-stage process. At the abattoir a certain level of cleaning and processing is done before being sent on to butchers and charcuterie. For the record, pigs ears are commonly dried and sold as chew toys for dogs: [1] or fresh for use in people food, [2]. They are a common ingredient in the U.S. cuisine known as soul food, and in a Filipino snack food known as tenga which is similar to pork rinds or chicharrón. --Jayron32 16:37, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

[3] mentions a "butcher" (whatever is meant by that) in Austria selling pig ears to China. (Although it perhaps goes a bit far in calling them a delicacy. They're enjoyed and eaten yes but my impression as semi supported by Pig's ear (food)#Chinese cuisine is they're more just an everday food in most cases. There may be some places where they're a delicacy, but they're not something like e.g. Chicken feet#Chinese cuisine.)

I think a relevant point is that whether or not pig ears are normally thrown away in parts of Europe or places like NZ* which I don't know, and reducing food waste is good, ultimately you do need to find a profitable way to use the parts which works under your local system. And this includes storage, collection and transport to wherever they may be used. It may be the systems in the US allow this, but those in parts of Europe don't. E.g. we know a lot of fruit and veges are thrown away in much of the developed world simply because they don't look good enough or are too small or whatever and there isn't any market worth sending them to that's worth the cost. (Although one of the problems there is the lower value of even the good products and the difficulty with transport and storage given the ease of damage.)

* = Yes supermarkets here often do have a butchery which processes at least some of the meat sold. I'm not sure what percentage but the butchers definitely do something more than relabelling meat with newer best before dates [4]. See e.g. [5] [6] about various awards won by butchers at supermarkets (both New World and Pak'n'Save are supermarket chains) or [7]. Which is not to suggest there isn't also significant off-site processing [8] [9]. Unfortunately I couldn't find stats on what percentage of meat is actually processed largely on site, perhaps partially because of the difficulty defining such things.

Nil Einne (talk) 09:49, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

I live in Austin, Texas, which has only about 6-7% Asian people. And our general purpose grocery store H-E-B sells fresh chicken feet. Just an example, the point is different markets eat different parts of animals, across cultures. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:03, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

According to our article on chicken feet, it's also a component in Mexican cuisine. Matt Deres (talk) 19:39, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Dunno about elsewhere in the world, but in Britain, chicken feet (and other interesting parts like pippik, ie stomachs) are commonly sold by kosher butchers, primarily for use in kosher penicillin. This is missing from our chicken feet article - I'll look for RS. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:38, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Done. Feel free to expand. There are loads of possible sources in Google Books, I just picked one. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:42, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

swear-in or initiation ceremonies

Are there any notable organizations that have their swear-in or initiation ceremonies take place at late night? Let's say between 10PM and 5AM. Googling seems to show that it's common for frat houses, but I'm only interested in "real" organizations. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 23:57, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

In the original Rover Scouts (members of the Scout Movement over 18 years-old), there was an option to hold an overnight vigil for new members, who would spend the night "in a church or chapel, in the open air, in the Rover Scout Den, or indeed in any place where quiet is assured". The individual was supposed to spend the time considering whether they would be able to live up to their Scout Law and Scout Promise and the "Rover Scout Ideals". See Rover Scouting;, Boy Scouts of Canada, 1952 (pp. 16-18) for details. This sort of quasi-chivalric ceremonial was abandoned by the main UK Scout Association in 1967, but has been retained by some traditional Scouting associations, such as members of the World Federation of Independent Scouts. The mainstream associations in Canada and Australia have both retained Rover Scouting in their programmes, this 1996 article suggests that the Rover Vigil had survived in Canada until that time. Alansplodge (talk) 16:58, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Does the Order of the Arrow still do midnight initiations? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 00:20, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

According to this, the OA "ordeal" consists of an overnight camp using survival gear plus an outdoors service project, and the candidates are not supposed to talk for the duration. It's an American thing, so I have no inside information. Alansplodge (talk) 18:57, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

From Governorship of Ronald Reagan:

• He was elected, defeating two-term governor Edmund G. "Pat" Brown by nearly a million votes, and was sworn in on January 2, 1967 at ten minutes past midnight. In 1988, Reagan explained that this time was chosen because his predecessor, Governor Brown, "had been filling up the ranks of appointments and judges" in the days before his term ended. Professor Marcello Truzzi, a sociologist at Eastern Michigan University who studied the Reagans' interest in astrology, regarded this explanation as "preposterous", as the decision to be sworn in at that odd time of day was made six weeks earlier, and was based on advice from Reagan's long-time friend, the astrologer Carroll Righter. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:22, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

• I'm confused as to why a fraternity is not a "real organization". --Jayron32 17:41, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Probably scare quotes. Fraternities and sororities are of course real, and actual organizations. They are also in the USA generally associated with binge drinking [10], rape [11], and throwing racist parties [12] [13] [14] -- often knowingly and intentionally doing so.

So I can see why OP doesn't want to consider them as "real" (read, notable, upstanding, reputable) organization. The KKK I suppose also has night time ceremonies, but I get the feeling that's not what OP was interested int. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:19, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

There are 1000s of fraternities and sororities across the US who do not take part in the behaviors mentioned. Of course, that does not show up in the news. Try using a smaller brush when painting pictures like that. MarnetteD|Talk 23:00, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

What he said. --Jayron32 02:40, 21 February 2017 (UTC)