Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 December 15

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December 15

Why are certain saints' names listed in the Roman Catholic Missal?

There is a part in the Roman Catholic church mass (toward the very end of the mass) where the priest reads off the names of some saints (perhaps six or seven). Off the top of my head, I think I remember: St. Felicity, St. Perpetua, Saint Sixtus, and St. Linus (I think, but I could be wrong). My question is: why are these specific saints named in the Roman Catholic Missal? From the many thousands of saints, why do their names get special mention? It always struck me as odd, since they seem (to me) like the more "obscure" saints, and not the "big names" that most people are familiar with. Thanks. 2602:252:D13:6D70:14C4:9303:8519:D32A (talk) 03:59, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

This is explained at Roman Canon; knowing nothing of it myself, it appears that the text covers founding figures, early Popes, martyred Popes, and then a few miscellaneous martyrs at the end who are least explicable - John and Paul, Saints Cosmas and Damian. Much of this is in parentheses - I'm not sure if that indicates whether that is part of the text made optional (?) by Pope Pius V during the Counter-Reformation. Wnt (talk) 09:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, and Cosmas and Damian all had ancient basilicas named after them in Rome (Basilica of Saint Lawrence outside the Walls, San Crisogono, Santi Giovanni e Paolo and Santi Cosma e Damiano. Why those ones are singled out from all the other churches in Rome, I don't know, but I suppose they are were the Roman Canon was developed. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:15, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

You can also read more at Canon of the Mass and History of the Roman Canon. --Jayron32 12:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. That article (Roman Canon) states the names of the fifteen saints who are mentioned, but it doesn't really say why those fifteen are specifically selected for mention. Does anyone know anything further? Thanks. 2602:252:D13:6D70:14DE:69F5:F4C:EAE3 (talk) 16:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you talking about the ones in the "second intercession" section? Adam Bishop (talk) 17:33, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Second Intersession section, yes. It lists: John the Baptist, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, (Ignatius, Alexander, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicity, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia) and all your Saints. 2602:252:D13:6D70:14DE:69F5:F4C:EAE3 (talk) 19:43, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure...and from preliminary research, it seems that no one else really knows either, it just sort of happened. None of these saints are really obscure though. They're all among the earliest martyrs. John the Baptist should be super famous. Stephen was the first Christian martyr. Matthias was the replacement for Judas. The seven female saints are all, well, pretty much the most famous early female martyrs. But why those saints and not others? I don't know. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:13, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, it always struck me as very odd. I mean: a saint is a saint is a saint. It's not like one saint is "better" or "more worthy" than another. Right? My guess is that this list was originally promulgated for whatever (arbitrary) reason. And then, through time, it just "stuck". 2602:252:D13:6D70:1076:CA7D:442C:6841 (talk) 19:11, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Like for other parts of the Canon, these saints and martyrs have ancient churches in Rome too...for the most part: Archbasilica of St. John Lateran, Santo Stefano al Monte Celio, Santi Marcellino e Pietro al Laterano, Sant'Agata dei Goti, Santa Lucia in Selci, Sant'Agnese fuori le mura, Santa Cecilia in Trastevere, and Basilica di Sant'Anastasia al Palatino. So it's possible that these saints were mentioned specifically because there were already churches dedicated to them in Rome. But there are plenty of other churches for saints that aren't mentioned in the canon, and I don't see any for Matthias, Barnabas, Ignatius, Alexander, Felicity, or Perpetua, so this hypothesis may not work... Adam Bishop (talk) 20:14, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, all. 2602:252:D13:6D70:258E:2FDC:D3C8:55C9 (talk) 15:40, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

dictatress

WERE there dictatress?--87.7.180.212 (talk) 16:05, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Yup. --Jayron32 16:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I like the form "dictatrix", and its plural "dictátrices". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Hm, "dictatrix" was lacking from the list of -rix words on wiktionary [1], but I added it by putting a suffix template on the dictatrix page at wiktionary. The category is surely lacking a few others, so as a fellow enthusiast, perhaps you'd care to help fill out the list :) SemanticMantis (talk) 21:08, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

There was Jezebel.—Wavelength (talk) 21:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

You might (or might not) be interested to know that "dictatress" has been in use in the English language since 1677, and "dictatrix" since 1623. Dbfirs 21:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I am. Is this from OED? Do they give the actual sentences or at least references for those first occurrences? Just curious who was worried about dictatresses/dictatrices (dictatrixes?) in the 17th c. Contact Basemetal here 05:41, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

"Dictatrix, a woman commanding things to be don" ([2]). More often in literature in the figurative it seems. Only about 450 years later the introduction of the word "macho" in the discussion would be making the score even! (Pig alone seem to have never achieved it [3]. )--Askedonty (talk) 07:16, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Looks like the first 1623 occurrence of "dictatrix" is as a lemma in a dictionary. There's no guarantee that the term was really already in use. It is suspicious that it occurs as a dictionary lemma before it occurs in a real text. Is the word "dictatrix" ever used in Latin? If used in Latin, it could only mean a dictator's wife or be used metaphorically, since women were not eligible to become dictator, consul, praetor, etc.Contact Basemetal here 09:38, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct that the 1623 mention is from another dictionary. The first cited actual usage in the OED is " The Church of Rome which is the great dictatrix of dogmaticall resolutions ..." from Theologia eklektike by Jeremy Taylor, Bishop of Down and Connor in 1647. Byron and Scott used dictatress in 1809 and 1827 respectively. Dbfirs 19:08, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

There it sounds as if dictator/dictatrix is used as "someone who dictates", not in the modern sense of a supreme political ruler. Contact Basemetal here 19:29, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

In the Western Empire certainly (which of course was the Latin speaking half), but look to Ulpia Severina as a possible exception to those rules. Also, the Eastern (Greek-speaking) half of the Roman Empire certainly had women hold important political offices in their own right, i.e. Irene of Athens, Zoë Porphyrogenita and her sister Theodora Porphyrogenita. --Jayron32 14:05, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The Roman playwright Plautus used the word "dictatrix" in one of his comedies, but as a joke. Still, that means it was apparently a recognizable word even in pre-imperial Latin. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:36, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

That would fall under the metaphorical use I suggested. I don't think Roman emperors had dictator imperium. In fact I think they only had 12 lictors, just like the consuls. The last dictator was the first C. Julius Caesar. Contact Basemetal here 17:23, 16 December 2015 (UTC)