Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 May 25

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May 25

List of wali called upon in tawassul?

I've been trying to find a list or resource of wali (Islamic saints) called upon tawassul (the Islamic intercession of saints). I've found this article, but they seem to be regional. I've also found one (assumably Shia) site call on Ali and Fatimah to intercede for them that I could start to pick through, but I'm wondering if there's just a nice list that has the name of the wali, the dates of their lives, sect and school (e.g. Sunni Hanafi), and notable features. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:18, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

This is more a feature of "folk Islam" (or esoteric Islam) than of centrally-defined scholarly or "official" Islam; and insofar as the practice is associated with tombs of holy men, it depends on which tombs are found in which areas. So the regional component is probably unavoidable... AnonMoos (talk) 10:11, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Racism in pirate times?

Was there a presence of racism on pirate ships or in days of pirates (not modern pirates)? I would assume there would be a bit of racism for slaves, but there were black pirates, such as Black Caesar. Acalycine^{(talk/contribs)} 04:58, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Not directly involving pirates, but the story of Inkle and Yarico was well-known in English-language literary circles... AnonMoos (talk) 10:01, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. Thanks. Acalycine^{(talk/contribs)} 10:25, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Not justs murderers and thieves, but racists too? Arrr! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:11, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Racism would have been widespread then, yes. However, pirates would have been forced by their circumstances to be rather pragmatic, and deal with whoever they needed to deal with, whether to buy weapons, sell their stolen goods, etc. This doesn't mean they had any respect for the other races, but the smart ones learned to keep their mouths shut long enough to complete the deal and move out of range. StuRat (talk) 18:21, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi Sturat, can you say where you got that info? I would like to read more. What you say is opposite to the way I imagined it would be which would be that any feelings of European superiority would have been based on religion rather than "race" and that pirates would have been unlikely to be religious. 184.147.147.85 (talk) 10:32, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Contemporaneous attitudes to race would be found in Robinson Crusoe which, although not involving piracy, involves a person of colour (Man Friday). 86.181.158.204 (talk) 21:12, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, good example. As for religion, I think that was rather an excuse to treat other races poorly, not the real reason. For example, look at the Trail of Tears, where native Americans were "ethnically cleansed", without regard for whether they had adopted Christianity. StuRat (talk) 18:20, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

• StuRat is right in that religion played a far more significant role than racism (as we would think of it today). It would more likely be described as some form of "nationalism" rather than "racism". Many pirates were mulattos (a word I strongly dislike but it is historically contextual) and found a place among pirate crews having been rejected by mainstream society (as pirates were anyway). Pirates from particular nations tended to congregate together because of common language and common religion but pirates were, almost by default, pragmatic and democratic (see no purchase, no pay). Proficiency was a highly valued commodity - if you were profitable and reliable, your skin colour was irrelevant. Benerson Little gives a good account of the cultural context in which pirates operated in The Buccaneer’s Realm. Wikipedia's own Piracy WikiProject has links to a range of related articles that might be of interest. Stalwart111 01:03, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Is there such a graph that displays different regions of political views that correspond to two variables: economic and personal freedom?

Curious here about if a graph that is intersected by two main variables, economic and personal freedom, and graphs all political views is existent. I've seen many Nolan charts, but none of which have been completely graphed with all political views. 76.107.253.105 (talk) 18:55, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're not going to find any infographics along those lines, at least not constructed by genuine economic or political scholars and not employing genuine empirical data, owing to the fact that "personal freedom" is rather a subjective and open-ended term and ill-suited to any kind of quantifiable utilization against another variable. For that matter, "economic" is rather an unrefined factor as well. If you are inquiring about the influence of open markets or the freedoms afforded to individual buyers to purchase particular goods within a given economic system, we can probably point you in the direction of appropriate materials, but you're going to have to be a lot more specific. Snow talk 22:20, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

No. The Nolan chart reduces all human political actions to two normative categories drawn from the enlightenment. A number of other views of political science or society draw different divisions, and, Nolan's chart cannot adequately represent the politics present in these viewpoints. Reducing all social interaction to two instrumentalist categories is almost guaranteed to exclude elements of social reality. Finally, even if you were to modify your question to, "Has someone graphed a large variety of modern political views onto a Nolan chart," that individual someone would almost certainly assign different values to political views than any other particular someone. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:39, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

No chart can explicitly list all political views, but you might find something useful at Political spectrum – or, more likely, in its links. —Tamfang (talk) 07:11, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

"Jerusalem" in Catholic churches

(Apparently I only use the reference desk to ask questions about William Blake now. Anyway...) I attended Mass at a Catholic church earlier today, and I am almost certain that I heard the tune to the hymn "Jerusalem" played on the organ immediately before (or possibly during; my memory is fuzzy, but I know everyone was kneeling) the Communion rite. I took note of that primarily since, while "Jerusalem" is routinely used in Anglican churches, I've never known it to be used in a Catholic church of any sort, and I wouldn't expect most Catholics to even know the tune.

I can't be 100% sure, but I was forced against my will into listening to dozens of renditions of "Jerusalem" earlier this month, so I know the song fairly well at this point. What I'm wondering is whether there's a similar tune I may have mistaken for "Jerusalem," perhaps one Parry based his setting upon. Thanks in advance. Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:20, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the modern Catholic Church isn't quite as stuffy as it used to be when it comes to good church music being written by a Catholic or Protestant. The last "Catholic" I dated (who was less of a Catholic than I am but still living with her devout parents) knew the words to the hymns at my (granted eclectically traditional) Baptist church, and I had to put up with her church's praise band. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:31, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I take it we are speaking in a British context here? If so, Jerusalem is well-known and adored enough that I shouldn't be surprised that it would be included in a mass, even though historically it played a role in protestant evangelizing. Aside from this, there is the possibility that this was a reference chosen by the church or organist to reflect the fact that the pope is in Jerusalem at present. Snow talk 22:42, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Ah, should have specified: I'm in North Carolina. And the geographical reference I had not considered; I rather like that theory, actually! Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 22:50, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, yes, it's purely speculative, but I shouldn't be surprised if that was the case, given the non-British context; given the national preoccupation with the song in Britain, I wouldn't be surprised to hear it during any form of Christian services there, but I imagine it's a relative rarity in the Catholic context elsewhere. As to addressing your actual question more directly -- needless to say, it difficult to rule out the possibility that you heard another, similar piece (and I'm not particularly well-versed in hymns that anything jumps to mind for me personally), but this reference does seem to strongly imply that the work was a thoroughly original composition from Parry. Snow talk 22:59, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

This hymnal [1] - or rather an earlier edition of the same work - was widely used in Catholic churches and schools in the UK when I was growing up (the 1980s). If you expand the contents you'll see that it includes "And did those feet" (i.e. Jerusalem), and to the best of my recollection also did so in the volume in use in my childhood. We certainly did sing Jerusalem occasionally. In a British context, the tune is well-known regardless of religious affiliation, and as the previous poster mentioned is as much a patriotic song as a hymn. Valiantis (talk) 23:07, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

The RC church is more open to traditionally "Protestant" hymns nowadays than it was decades ago. "Amazing Grace" can now be heard in Canadian RC churches, even though its a traditional Protestant hymn from the U.S. A lot of other traditional Protestant hymns can now be found in the current hymnals of Catholic churches. Music is more ecumenical these days, I guess. OttawaAC (talk) 00:10, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Amazing Grace is most certainly not a 'Protestant hymn from the US' - the words are by an Englishman. AlexTiefling (talk) 00:14, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, the tune "New Britain" is American, words and music being first published together in Southern Harmony in 1835. The hymn had fallen out of use in the UK and was reintroduced from the USA in the 20th century. Alansplodge (talk) 08:52, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I thought we won it in 1812, though. :P Ian.thomson (talk) 00:19, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm missing the necessary cultural context here. AlexTiefling (talk) 00:22, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

No border changes resulted from the War of 1812. It was more of a cultural victory for the Americans (well, except for the Native Americans) than anything. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:27, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

It rather depends on your perspective - over here it's viewed as an attempted land-grab in Canada while we were pre-occupied with Napoleon. I think we can safely call it a draw. Alansplodge (talk) 10:34, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, the US got some songs from the war, ranging from "The Star-Spangled Banner" to "The Battle of New Orleans". Did the British get anything for their efforts? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:08, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

We got to keep Canada, and we made you paint the White House white. Alansplodge (talk) 12:13, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

We're collecting Canada, one talented citizen at a time: William Shatner, Justin Bieber, etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:59, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Justin Bieber? Bugs, I'm dubious your fellow Americans view that as a sign of victory. Citation please? ;) Snow talk 21:02, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

The Mormons seem to have collected Jesus Christ as well. 86.181.158.204 (talk) 21:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I directed my Catholic church choir ten years ago and can say that in my parish a good hymn was a good hymn, regardless of source. We even used Lean On Me as the Recessional hymn once. Mingmingla (talk) 00:45, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps your organist wasn't playing the tune 'Jerusalem', he was instead playing the theme of Holst's 'Jupiter'. 86.181.158.204 (talk) 21:19, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

It's 'I Vow to Thee, My Country', not 'Jerusalem', that is sung to a theme from Holst's 'Jupiter'. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I know the bit of "Jupiter" you're referring to. That's a distinct possibility, though I will say that I think what I heard sounded more like "Jerusalem" than Holst's theme. I'll have to check out some organ renditions of both and compare, though. Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 00:06, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

"Jupiter" sounds quite a bit like "Jerusalem," but I'm still pretty certain what I heard was "Jerusalem." Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 02:50, 27 May 2014 (UTC)