Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2019 March 18

Welcome to the Wikipedia Entertainment Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

March 18

Kim Esty is not Canadian

Hello Why does Wikipedia list Kim Esty as being Canadian, despite her British accent, and other sites listing her as being form Lymington? She live si nToronto but judging by her British accent, she was not born there. I wish I could cite my source in the article but due to the captchas I cannot right now. thanks.199.101.61.34 (talk) 01:07, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

She was born in Toronto according to this website among others. You should be aware that people can have all manner of accents that aren't necessarily an indicator of where they were born. MarnetteD|Talk 01:57, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

And if she was born in Canada, she is very likely a Canadian citizen. For more detail as to the "very likely" part, see Jus soli#Unrestricted jus soli and Renunciation of citizenship#Renunciation law in specific countries. --76.69.46.228 (talk) 08:50, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Discogs lists her as beng from Lymington and moving to Toronto, which better explains her British accent. I know many people from Toronto and they speak whith hard R sounds, not Uh sounds, and they pronounce T's in lots of words like Ds. Kim Esty's accent is extremely similar to that of the singer Birdy who is also from the same area. I've never heard of a Canadian that speaks with a notable British accent. It's not just her singing it's her speaking voice too. also there's no such thing as a Canadian eurodance singer because Eurodance means European dance both in English and Arabic. 199.101.61.34 (talk) 09:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Discogs is a user generated site (like Wikipedia) and thus not a reliable source. Do you have any reliable source that says she is British? Because I cannot find any but I can find multiple sources that list her as Canadian, including a 1998 issue of Billboard. Regards SoWhy 10:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't know what you Americans define as reliable. I'm going by her accent, not by her place of residence. There's no such thing as a Canadian with a British accent nor is ther esuch a thing as a Canadian eurodance singer. I never said discogs is reliable I said it better explains her accent. There are no Canadian-born people with British accents if they grew up in Canada, North America. 199.101.61.34 (talk) 12:45, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

You might be surprised but "There's no such thing as a Canadian with a British accent" is a claim we cannot just accept because someone on the Internet said so. In fact, Canadian dainty is similar to British ([1]) and there are plenty of possible reasons why a Canadian might speak with a British accent, such as being born in Canada but growing up in the UK. Point is, unless we can verify that she is British, we will go with the sources that confirm her Canadian nationality. As for "reliable", the page I linked to does explain what we refer to as reliable and what not but it's not "you Americans" specific (I'm German for example). Regards SoWhy 13:30, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The archived website in the references says she was born in Toronto to parents of German and Austrian descent. It also thanks her for providing that information. 2A00:23C5:2208:4600:BD64:EF37:E6A1:AE92 (talk) 15:16, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• Also relevant for the OP is that accents can change throughout one's life. Sandi Toksvig, current host of QI speaks perfect British Received Pronunciation despite learning English in New York. See here. Kim Esty's accent has nothing to do with her nationality. She can speak with any accent she wants. Being from Canada means she's Canadian.--Jayron32 00:50, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Would that a tall also explain why this supposed Ontarian speaks with an accent exactly the same as this gal does? Last I checked accents are not something you can just put on to that degree of acuracy. Fore example, I am from Yemen, born and bread there. I moved to the UK when I was 4 years old, and didn't get a perfect accent until I was 14. I only moved to Canada in the last 3 months, and sound like a Brit with a slight Arabian accent. Through personal experience I know how dificult it is to develope an accent with acuracy. It's not something y'all can just put on unless you have extreme talents that are mostly unknown to the public at large. I bring this up not to dispute that Esty and hughes are now Canadian but rather that accents (Hughes's Nordic accent is much more slight than Esty's Hampshire accent) bring into question some claims of origin. The reason this is important is because audiences like to identify with their celebrities they love. As somebody who was forced out of his country of birth, nationality to me is everything, it is part of your makeup and life story, and that is real precious to me. 199.101.61.34 (talk) 01:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes accents can change. All you have to do is examine how Madonna's accent changed during the time she lived in the UK. BTW there are more than one kind of British accent. The people who have responded to your question are not making things up. If you continue to doubt what you are being told I don't think there is any reason for us to respond further. MarnetteD|Talk 01:13, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

You can also listen to Stephen Fry during a random episode of QI. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:48, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

If nationality is so important or precious to you, why are you trying to deny someone a nationality based on their accent? So far, we only have one source suggesting she isn't Canadian born and that source is user generated. For all we know, it arose because someone else was convinced her accent meant she wasn't Canadian born. Meanwhile we have other sources, including one which suggest they got it from the singer themselves saying they are Canadian born.

It's possible that these sources are wrong or confused but refusing to believe someone's nationality because of their nationality is, at best, impolite so unless you can find better sources this should end. (If you want to argue the sources aren't good enough to include the info and we should just exclude it, you can try that, although that discussion should happen on the talk page and her accent probably shouldn't be part of it.)

If you are really so convinced that she isn't Canadian born, you could always ask them, there seems to be various social media profiles associated with them at least one of which it looks like they control. Be warned of what I said earlier though, if you don't phrase this as a simple neutral question don't be surprised if you receive a harsh response since people often do not take kindly to those who refuse to accept what they are because of these people's own biased beliefs.

As others have said someone learning an accent including a new accent is going to depend on a lot of things including what their sources are (who or what they listen to), who they talk to, their age, their aptitude to such things, how much effort they put in etc. Just look at actors (used in a gender neutral fashion). Some master accents good enough in a few months or less so even experts have trouble recognising any flaws suggesting it isn't something they have been speaking for years. Some not really intentionally, keep doing the same poor imitation of some accent for many years.

Nil Einne (talk) 10:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not saying it is impossible to learn an accent. By the way the people above worded it, it sounds like it's real real easy to do so. I am saying, no it is not. As somebody who spent years trying to sound as regionally British (to manchetser) as I could, I know this. I do doubt the sources for now, key phraise here is for now. This is due to an assumtion that just because somebody lives in Toronto they therefore are Torontonian. I want to disucss removing all nationality references on he rtalk page but by the looks of previous discussions there were little to no responses. We also have to remember what eurodance means. eurodance, not Amerodance. Canada is part of NA. Candance is I believe the Canadian parallel to Eurodance. 199.101.61.34 (talk) 13:00, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

You have zero evidence that the sources are making that assumption. Especially the source which says they got their info from her and which talks of her parents being of Austrian and German descent.

And no one every said it's very easy to learn an accent. All that people have really said is you're dead wrong to claim it's impossible for someone who was born in Canada to have an accent you think sounds British. Note the wording of my statement.

AFAICT, we still haven't even established where she grew up. The only thing that's been said is she was born in Canada. Which is not to say her accent is impossible for someone who was born and grew up in Canada, simply that where she grew up is not something the sources, our article or the commentators above have any definite evidence on.

As for the eurodance stuff, you're confusing the etymology of the term with the term itself. In English, Eurodance appears to be a specific genre of music. (I have no idea of what the term means in Arabic and it seems of no relevance to the article in the English wikipedia for a Canadian of Austrian and German descent who sings in English. I mean if her music was particularly popular in the Arabic world and the terminology of what to call it was particularly significant perhaps you could establish justification, but ultimately you'd need to take it to the talk page.) So it's perfectly possible for someone from Canada or from the US or anywhere else in the world to produce Eurodance music. The same that someone who has never left the heart of the city of Dili can produce country and western music.

Nil Einne (talk) 14:16, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Why doesn't the article of Vinny Appice mention the Solo-album Sinister?

I'm holding the album mentioned above in my hands right now. Did no-one bother to add it or are there reasons I just don't know..? If there will be no response, I will add it myself. Oxygene7-13 (talk) 15:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Actually it's not a Vinny solo album but credited to Appice, a group consisting of him and his brother [2]. As for why it's not on here, your assumption is correct – no-one's gotten around to it. Would be good if you could add it, but make sure it's correctly described as a duo rather than a solo effort. --Viennese Waltz 15:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@Viennese Waltz:Thanks for answering. When I'm gonna add it I will mention the "duo" part. Again: THNX! Oxygene7-13 (talk) 16:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I just added the album to both Vinny's & Carmine's article. Oxygene7-13 (talk) 18:30, 18 March 2019 (UTC)