Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Peer review/Arnold Bennett/archive1

< Wikipedia:Peer review

Arnold Bennett edit

Toolbox

After a year or three of keeping away from FAC I am thinking of venturing back, and Arnold Bennett is one of the articles I have been working on in the interim that I hope are of, or approaching, FA standard. Bennett was sneered at by highbrows in his own time and has been rather neglected subsequently, but at his best he was a novelist of very considerable achievement. Suggestions for improvement of the article, whether of the prose or the substance, will be gratefully received. Tim riley talk 11:01, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley edit

  • Pedant's corner: "a daily journal of more than a million words". For a second I wondered how he could write a million words in a day. Maybe totalling a million?
  • "He died in 1931 of typhoid fever having unwisely drunk tap water in France." I would have a comma after "fever".
  • Will do.
  • "His books appealed to a wide public and sold in large numbers. For this reason writers and supporters of the modernist school belittled him, and much of his work became neglected after his death." 1. An estimate of total sales would be helpful here if available. 2. You imply that the criticism was solely on the ground of his large sales. Is this correct? 3. "much of his work became neglected". What does this mean - that some of his work was never neglected? You say that many were potboilers so presumably deserved neglect.
  • 1. Alas, not available, though I agree it would be good here. 2. Pretty much - pandering to the masses, you know. 3. Absolutely. His best is very fine, but there's a fair bit that deserves its obscurity. Tim riley talk 19:14, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • On 2 maybe clarify pandering to masses and on 3 I would delete "much of"
  • "Among the writers who impressed and influenced Bennett were George Moore, Émile Zola, Honoré de Balzac, Guy de Maupassant, Gustave Flaubert and Ivan Turgenev." No change needed, but it is interesting that he apparently did not admire any of the British 19C greats.
  • Yes, I thought that too, but the sources are remarkably free of references to Trollope, Dickens et al. Tim riley talk 19:14, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "layettes". Maybe link?
  • "Journalism for Women (1898) and Polite Farces for the Drawing Room (1899)". I think a few words of explanation would be helpful - that the polite farces were three plays and the other work presumably a book of advice.
  • I'll ponder this. I can't quite work out why he would have published three plays seemingly not meant for performance. Could do with following up, I agree. Tim riley talk 19:14, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • How do you know they were not meant for performnce? I have tracked down a performance of one at [1]!
  • Interesting! I wonder if it's any good. But these are the only plays I know of that have been published before being staged. Usually it's t'other way round. I'll see if the biographies cover this. Tim riley talk 09:33, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "where he took up residence in March" What does this mean - the month or a location?
  • I don't think I can say "the month of March". I think the meaning is clear. Tim riley talk 19:14, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1911 Bennett paid a financially rewarding visit to the US," "paid" seems an odd word here. Also, how was it rewarding? Presumably he was well known enough for a profitable lecture tour, but if so it would be helpful to spell this out.
  • Paying a visit is idiomatic, I think, but I'll change to "made a ... visit." The reasons why it was profitable are given in the following sentences, now emphasised with linking words. Tim riley talk 19:14, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • More to follow, but it does seem to me that the lead does not convey his great success in his lifetime. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:38, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much, Dudley, for these points. Looking forward to more when you are good and ready. Tim riley talk 19:14, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A Man from the North. The date of this novel would be helpful.
  • Indeed, and I have said below in response to another reviewer that I'll go through the whole article and add publication dates where I have failed to do so already. Tim riley talk 17:22, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he was sparing with the label "A novel" which he used only five times". This does not seem to me sparing as you say the maximum he used any label was six.
  • Drabble and the CUP both tally his novels at 35. I think his labelling only five of them as "novels" is justification for the adjective "sparing". Tim riley talk 17:20, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Literary critics have followed Bennett in dividing his novels into groups." "followed Bennett" implies that he divided his novels into groups - were they the same as Koenigsberger's?
  • The implication is correct, as glanced at your previous comment. I don't know that Koenigsberger and the other critics precisely followed AB's categorisations of his novels, but it's there or thereabouts, I think. Tim riley talk 17:37, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • BFI. I think you should give the full name.
  • Done. Not sure why I thought to pipe it to an abbreviation. Tim riley talk 17:16, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was so appalled by much of what he found in the journals that he published only brief extracts". Is it known whether the controversial comments were solely ones which were slanderous? If so, further details would be interesting.
  • They would indeed! I have the firm impression from the remarks of G. W. Lyttelton and Rupert Hart-Davis that Newman Flower's blue pencil was aimed at bedroom matters. Flower had form on this, having similarly censored Arthur Sullivan's diaries, which were almost certainly full of goings-on with the ladies, but this is only my conjecture, and I can't say anything of it in the article. Tim riley talk 16:44, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was his attitude to gender" gender seems to me the wrong word here - why not women?
    It is Koenigsberger's word, but you're right. Done. Tim riley talk 17:37, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Drabble ascribes her obduracy to a combination of the vindictive and the mercenary – no divorce court would award a settlement as advantageous to her as the highly generous terms given to her by Bennett at their separation." You have to go by the sources but this sounds unlikely to me. Why should she not have demanded that Bennett guarantee to continue the terms? As she was French, might she not have refused because she was a Catholic?
  • I know not of the powers of the divorce courts of that time to override private agreements, and must rely on the sources. If I may add a dash of personal prejudice here, I doubt that Marguerite was so devout an RC as to put dogma in front of dosh, but I may do her an injustice. Tim riley talk 17:37, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you again, Dudley! It will be an enjoyable task to work through your concluding batch of suggestions. Tim riley talk 13:27, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Dudley, I am indebted to you - not for the first time - for your shrewd and helpful comments. Thank you very much. Tim riley talk 17:37, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild edit

Looks pretty much FAC ready to me. Some thoughts below. No need to respond here on them, do with them what you will and I look forward to meeting the article again at FAC.

  • "Bennett was intended by his father, a solicitor, to follow him into the law." I fear that this may not travel well. Perhaps 'Bennett's father, a solicitor, had hoped to would follow his example and make a career in the law' or similar?
  • "French culture in general and literature in particular". Merely a suggestion: → 'French culture in general and French literature in particular'.
  • Link "social milieu". Is there a non-social milieu?
  • "articled himself" is probably not going to make sense to many readers. Or not the sense you wish it to.
  • "in Hanley and the neighbouring Burslem". Is "the necessary/useful?
  • Link "grammar school", "undergraduate", "highbrow".
  • "He completed Anna of the Five Towns in 1901; it was published the following year, as was its successor, The Grand Babylon Hotel, an extravagant story of crime in high society, which sold 50,000 copies in hardback and was translated into four languages." A long sentence covering two topics. May read better if split. And has the later work, to this day, only been translated into four languages?
  • Perhaps Swinnerton and Pound could be introduced?
  • Consider linking "chorus girl" to Chorus line.
  • "and swiftly married a fellow American." I am not sure that "swiftly" is the best word here.
  • "but fell badly flat". I t may just be me, but the insertion of "badly" into "fell flat" jars.
  • "He turned his attention from writing plays and novels to his journalism". Are you sure about "his"?
  • "not only in Britain but also in". Consider → 'in Britain and'.
  • "in charge of the whole ministry for the last weeks of the war ... As the war was ending, Bennett returned to his theatrical interests". Really? Busy man.
  • "Marguerite had taken up with Pierre Legros". Delicately phrased, but I suspect that "taken up with" will sail straight past a majority of readers.
  • "which he had taken during the war." The terminology may be opaque to many readers.
  • "Beaverbrook's Evening Standard". I'm not sure about "Beaverbrook's".
  • Lead: "which he called The Five Towns" → 'which he called the Five Towns'.
  • "More recently, two further volumes of Bennett's hitherto uncollected short stories have been published". Can their publication be dated any more precisely?
  • Link libretti. (To libretto.)
  • "Inspired by those of the Goncourt brothers, Bennett kept a journal throughout his adult life." I suggest reversing the order of these clauses.
  • Perhaps the term "modernist" could be explained in line?
  • "Critical reputation" pushes MOS:QUOTE - "While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style ... It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate" - to, and arguably past, the point of MoS compliance.
  • "Society" as a section heading is ambiguous.

Notes:

  • "but is evidently now the "Villa les Néfliers"." "evidently" seems a little Weasely.
  • "The omitted town is Fenton, an omission that still rankles with some local people in the 21st century." Very true.

Sources:

  • Jacobs is missing a publisher.
  • I would have expected page ranges for Shapcot and Swinnerton (1954).

Gog the Mild (talk) 19:45, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for these points, Gog. I have addressed them all, I think, changed what seems to me to need changing, and have noticeably improved the article thereby. Tim riley talk 12:26, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Noswall edit

I have not read previous comments here, so please excuse me if I duplicate any.

Lead
  • I wonder whether we need the commas in "worked in, and briefly ran, the Ministry of Information"?
No, and done. Tim riley talk 07:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Otherwise, a fine and engaging introduction.
Life and career
  • Is "constituent part" redundant?
  • Do we know which grammar school in Newcastle? Presumably it ought to have an article of its own.
  • Well, we do (Newcastle High School), a predecessor of a present-day private school that has an article, but I decided against linking it, as our article says nothing about the school of Bennett's time. I'm not tied to that decision with hoops of steel. Tim riley talk 07:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "gave him a love for French literature and the French language that lasted all his life". Nothing wrong with this but it could optionally be shortened to "inspired a life-long love for French literature and the French language".
  • I'll ponder this. At first glance I'm not moved to alter it. Tim riley talk 07:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does the magazine Woman deserve a red link?
  • The existence of a present-day Woman magazine (with a WP article of its own) gave me pause. I suspect a red link might cause confusion. If anyone ever writes an article about the old defunct Woman they will be able to search through WP articles for references to it and link accordingly, but a problem with adding a red link here is that there is no convention for naming articles on old magazines, and the article I posited in a red link might not be the one chosen for the actual article. Tim riley talk 07:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "eccentric and unreliable" made me wonder in what sense they were the latter?
  • Drabble calls them "vain, self-admiring … with various financial disasters", with a "destructive" mother" … Bennett was "mercifully delivered from the Greens". The family laughed off Green's cruel treatment of Bennett as "a prank". "Unreliable" is perhaps too mild. Tim riley talk 07:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've removed the Wikitree reference. The existing Drabble one is fine on its own. Tim riley talk 07:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Works
  • This section opens with a description of his democratising agenda, but this seems a little loaded (not that I think it's wrong); is there not at least a more cynical interpretation that he was also interested in making money by selling to a popular audience? (I know very little about Bennett, so maybe not.)
  • You bet he was interested in making money! But also he felt - and said loudly to the annoyance of the highbrows - that their exclusivity was a bad thing. I think the existence of his democratising agenda is well backed by the major sources. Tim riley talk 07:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In writing about the Five Towns Bennett aimed to establish himself as a realistic writer, portraying the experiences", repetitive given that the previous sentence began with "As a realistic writer". Perhaps just "In writing about the Five Towns Bennett portrayed the experiences".
  • In the section "Novels and short stories" some books are named with their years of publication, others not, like A Man from the North and Clayhanger, though I notice the latter has the year mentioned later on, in the third paragraph of this subsection.
  • Excellent point. I'll go through the whole article aming to be consistent on this. Tim riley talk 07:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The other sections are, to my eyes, impeccably written. I am no expert on Bennett so I cannot say with certainty that this is comprehensive, but it seems to be. These small quibbles are, therefore, all I can find. A very interesting read – I learnt quite a bit. I'm sure it will do well at FAC if you wish to take it there. —Noswall59 (talk) 14:48, 29 June 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Noswall, thank you so much for these points. I shall enjoy working through them tomorrow. I haven't been to PR for years, and I had forgotten how gratifying it is to have a harvest of helpful suggestions from simpatico colleagues. Marvellous stuff! Tim riley talk 18:26, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for suggestions and your kind comment. Distinct improvements to the article, and I'm grateful. Tim riley talk 07:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda edit

Thank you for the article which looks great at a glance. I'll comment as I read, and skip the lead for now.

TOC

  • How about "Hanley" for consistency with the other entries?
    • Because the section also covers Burslem and Newcastle. Tim riley talk 08:11, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm a bit uneasy about "Marriage" when there's no hint at Dorothy and their daughter, and rather little said about his first wife.
    • Dorothy is irrelevant. She never married Bennett, as we make explicit in the appropriate section. Marguerite was his only wife. Tim riley talk 08:11, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm probably the only one not to know what "Critical reputation" means, vs. "Reception", or "Prestige".
    • It means what the critics said at the time and later.
  • The header "Omelettes" makes me curious ;)
  • Why "Further reading" within "Sources ..."?

First years

  • Thank you for the laugh reading the quote!
  • "completed in 1896 was published two years later" - I'd offer a comma after 1896.

Freelance

  • How about "his father" and "his mother", instead of "Enoch Barnett" and "his widow"?
    • Because that would make Mrs Bennett Enoch's mother and not his widow. Tim riley talk 07:47, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • rue de Calais [fr], rue d'Aumale [fr] - nice background, and hopefully LouisAlain will be willing to translate some of it.

Taking a break at his death. Pleasant reading so far, thank you. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:14, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments above. Tim riley talk 07:47, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for explaining, all taken. I hope to continue later today, will be pleasantly occupied for most of the afternoon/evening with listening live to Le Concert Spirituel, music by Handel. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:53, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Novels ...

  • "His ambivalence about his native town is vividly seen in "The Death of Simon Fuge" ... but his chosen locations ranged widely, including Paris and Venice as well as London and the Five Towns." - I don't understand that but.
  • replaced with full stop.

Stage ...

  • about the operas: "There were comments that ..." - perhaps it's just me, but the phrase strikes me as not a convincing beginning.
  • Can't see much amiss with it.
  • about a silent film: "a full-length treatment" - what is that in film, please?
  • The sources do not say.

Omelettes

  • I tried both when drafting this, and the singular looked a bit odd, it seemed to me.

Lead

  • "a Frenchwoman" - sounds a bit old-fashioned to me, and could be avoided by giving her a name, and also the other "partner" who hasn't even a gender assigned.
  • Details are given in the main text. The names are not really needed in the lead.
  • "In 1912 he moved back to England." - no hint at his wife coming with him.
  • As above, the details are given in the main text. Excessive to add "and his wife came with him" in the lead.
  • Doesn't his daughter deserve mentioning, if tap water is important enough?
  • Details are given in the main text.
  • How about mentioning opera libretto writing and silent film, without detail?
  • Peripheral in my view. The books and plays are what he is known for.

That's all for this round, - thank you for introducing us to literature I didn't know! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Tim riley talk 22:06, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Peer_review/Arnold_Bennett/archive1&oldid=1038284978"