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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of accolades received by Undertale/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was archived by Giants2008 via FACBot (talk) 22:15:10 15 December 2019 (UTC) [1].

List of accolades received by Undertale edit

List of accolades received by Undertale (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 18:17, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Undertale is an indie video game created by Toby Fox. The game was crowdfunded via Kickstarter. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 18:17, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Support Comments from Alexandra
  • I will be posting comments here soon.--Alexandra IDVtalk 06:55, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • As Harrias already mentioned below, this is currently a content fork of the parent article's Accolades section. I do think that it can be justified as a spin-out article, but the parent article should then not contain the accolades table, and should link to and summarize the list page.
  • WP:VG/REC says to not use GameRankings other than in cases where a Metacritic score is unavailable (ie older games from before MC was created and became the industry standard).
  • I believe there is a lot of extraneous information in the lead. It is good to introduce the topic to the reader and give context, but do we need to know details like how and when the development was funded, and how much the crowdfunding campaign made?
  • Steam Spy makes estimates of sales based on checking how often it is included in public Steam user profiles - I think it should be clear that these are estimates, and not official numbers. As they are estimates, I also think a specific number like 530,343 is inappropriate - round to "over 530,000".
  • "Nitendo" should be "Nintendo", and is here a publisher rather than a work
  • The same year at Steam Awards the received the nomination - you are missing a word here
  • The last paragraph in the lead is quite tedious to read, and is essentially just a list written out in sentence form. I would recommend summarizing what kinds of awards it won (story, game of the year, etc.), and mentioning any particularly major awards directly.
  • I cannot support this just yet - ping me when the above has been addressed, and I will take a second look.--Alexandra IDVtalk 17:48, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Alexandra IDV: I have made changes to the list as you suggested. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 06:13, 25 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for the delay in returning to you on this. I am happy with the changes you implemented, and support the FLC.--Alexandra IDVtalk 02:46, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but after having seen Dissident's breakdown/removal of the invalid entries, I can no longer support this. I Oppose and recommend merging it back with the main article until (if) the game wins/is nominated for a significant amount of awards that would make for valid entries.--AlexandraIDV 09:01, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Harrias
  • Harrias CAPTAIN MEDUSA I think an easy solution to this would be to get rid of everything under accolades on the Undertale page and list the main article as this page. Pretty easy solution that's definitely not worth an oppose (to me at least). – zmbro (talk) 22:00, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Spy-cicle edit

Currently I have to Oppose until some parts of the article are fixed. I have not fully checked all the references on the table but here are my comments so far:

  • Gaming publications/magazines need to be in italics. This includes IGN, Destructoid and GameSpot.
  • Currently the Undertale logo is too large and takes up too much space. I suggest you reduce the size significantly.
  • Currently the lede paragraph could do with improvement. Currently it is "Undertale is a role-playing video game created by American indie developer Toby Fox. Players in the game can freely roam the underground world filled with towns and caves. The underground is the home of monsters, many of whom challenge the player in combat. Players control a human child and choose whether to kill, befriend or flee the monsters. In 2013 the game was crowdfunded through the website Kickstarter." Currently the first sentence is generally fine. The others could be less redundant and the paragraph would look something like (changes in bold): "Undertale is a role-playing video game created by American developer Toby Fox. Players control a human child who can freely roam the underground world filled with towns and caves. The underground is the home of monsters, many of whom challenge the player in combat. Players can choose whether to kill, befriend or flee the monsters. In 2013, the game was crowdfunded through the website Kickstarter."
  • References should wiki-link their respective Gaming publication.
  • I could not find anything in the first Rock, Paper, Shotgun reference to state is was crowdfunded by Kickstarter
  • I am going to need more references to state that the game was critical acclaimed and is a cult video game per WP:PEACOCK.
  • The Ars Technica reference should cite the fourth page. Here is a URL citing the fourth page [2]
  • Not sure how reliable the GamingOnLinux source is I would suggest swapping it out for a different one.
  • Swap out the Eurogamer article and Japanese reference about PS4/Vita/Switch release since it is was about its upcoming release date. Citaitons of Release dates have to be after the game is out per WP:VG/DATE.
  • "In 2016, at the 2016 Independent Games Festival the game..." One of those 2016's is redundant.

Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 18:31, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CAPTAIN MEDUSA Thanks for the speedy reply and changes. Currently, the introduction to the list has significantly improved. These are the additional comments I have upon further inspection of the list.

  • "Funniest Game on PC from Rock, Paper, Shotgun" I could not find that within the cited soured.
  • The archived source for IGN PC Game of the Year brings up a 404 error.
  • "Game of the Year from ... IGN." I think it should state PC Game of the Year since IGN could have a different game for the overall game of the year regardless of platforms.
  • "In 2016, at the Independent Games Festival the game won Audience Award, and garnered three nominated for Excellence in Audio, Excellence in Narrative, and Seumas McNally Grand Prize" The cited claim does not support the nominations and only the won award.
  • The D.I.C.E Awards should have the . s in between and should be linked to its dedicated page D.I.C.E. Awards
  • Currently the table is ordered by date. I suggest ordering it alphabetically by Award as seen on List of accolades received by Red Dead Redemption 2 since the left hand column is the award column. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 22:20, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whilst the quality of the List is high I am going to have currently strike my previous !vote due to the current uncertainity of whether this meets FLC#3c due to the relatively small number of entries on the list, especially since Dissident93 has removed further entries. However, I am not sure if all of those were justified. For example: British Academy Games Awards makes sense to be included although I do not think the same can be said for The Jimquisition. Although, others like IGN and GameSpot do somewhat make sense and have been featured on previous FLs like List of accolades received by Red Dead Redemption 2.

Regardless I am going to vote Merge back into Undertale for the time being. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 17:42, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ChrisTheDude edit

  • "freely roam the underground world" - I would suggest an underground world
  • "and PlayStation Vita later on 15 September 2018 for Nintendo Switch" - this doesn't make sense. For which platform was it released on that date? If it was both, why does it not just say Vita and Switch together?
  • "Review aggregator Metacritic, assigned" - no reason for that comma there
  • "assigned the game a normalised score" - as it is a US topic, normalized should be spelt with a Z
  • "receiving Game of the Month, and Funniest Game on PC" - again, no need for a comma there
  • I would put "and" before "Game of the Year for PC", as it is the last item in a list
  • "Matthew Crump Cultural Innovation Award" => "the Matthew Crump Cultural Innovation Award"
  • Remove the comma after that award
  • "from SXSW Gaming Awards" => "from the SXSW Gaming Awards"
  • "from National Academy of Video Game Trade Reviewers awards" => "from the National Academy of Video Game Trade Reviewers Awards"
  • "Undertale was nominated for Innovation Award" => "Undertale was nominated for the Innovation Award"
  • "at Game Developers Choice Awards" => "at the Game Developers Choice Awards"
  • "the game won Audience Award" => "the game won the Audience Award"
  • "and garnered three nominated" => "and garnered three nominations"
  • " and Seumas McNally Grand Prize." => " and the Seumas McNally Grand Prize."
  • "The same year at Steam Awards" => "The same year at the Steam Awards"
  • Note a - "Date is linked to the article about the awards held that year, wherever possible." - is there really any point in this note given that not a single date is linked?
  • Think that's it from me -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:35, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
ChrisTheDude — Done. I have also looked at the uses of the article. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 11:48, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose - hopelessly and unaddressably fails FLC#3c "In length and/or topic, it meets all of the requirements for stand-alone lists; does not violate the content-forking guideline, does not largely duplicate material from another article, and could not reasonably be included as part of a related article." Accolades lists are generally only split from a main article when they reach a certain (vaguely defined) length. This list does not meet that minimum. This list consists of a lead that is mostly copied from the parent article and the list itself which is less than a page and a half long. When it was still part of the main article, it was in a drop down list that took up even less space. There is no conceivable way for this list about a four year old game to expand to meet minimum standalone list requirements and honestly should just be merged back to the main article post haste. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:47, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Axem Titanium. As it states on WP:SIZERULE > 100 kB Almost certainly should be divided. The current size of the article is 71,498 bytes and with table 31,819 which adds to 103,317. Some parts of the article need to be copied such as plot, award, and logo. The list originally was hidden so there is no impact reader. Also per MOS:DONTHIDE Scrolling lists, and collapsible templates that toggle text display between hide and show, can interfere with readers' ability to access our content. Such mechanisms are not to be used to conceal "spoiler" information. If the information is important and the concern is article density or length, consider dividing the article into more sections, integrating unnecessarily list-formatted information into the article prose, or splitting the article. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 12:57, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, the table, before you removed it from the main article, was only 17kb out of a total article size of 89kb. Second of all, according to WP:SIZERULE, "These rules of thumb apply only to readable prose and not to wiki markup size (as found on history lists or other means)". The readable prose in Undertale is only 22.5kb. I don't have a preference between a hideable table and not; I was merely reporting its state before you removed it. This split was done unilaterally by Captain Medusa on November 19, 2019, after zero discussion and with no prior indications from any editor that a split was necessary or desirable. I will refrain from speculating about the motivations of the author to make such a split and rush it to FLC just 2 days later. Axem Titanium (talk) 23:58, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. Should I rewrite the list or start a discussion. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 12:29, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would withdraw the nomination and merge the table back into the main article as a start. Ordinarily, I would revert it myself via WP:BRD but you've gone ahead and nominated it for FLC so that makes reverting more challenging. Axem Titanium (talk) 15:57, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Giants2008 PresN A user is claiming the nominator should withdrawal this nom and merge this list into the main article's page even though it currently has three supports. I think we should get at least one or both of your opinions on this matter before the nominator does so. – zmbro (talk) 20:35, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We haven't had a lot of video game accolade lists come to FLC, but I remember seeing somewhere that movie/music accolade lists of under 25 items were prime candidates to fail 3b, as they could be merged into parent articles. This list has 27 items, so it's a very borderline case either way. More input from the community would be nice here, as it's a case where the FLC community, and not merely the leaders of FLC, should decide whether a separate article can meet 3b in this scenario, where it isn't clear-cut. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:47, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree; this seems borderline to me, but I honestly am not a fan of accolade lists at all so I feel I'm not 100% in step with the community on this issue. I'd also like more comments here on this issue; additionally, I'm going to post an invitation at WT:VG for subject-area editors to chime in as well. --PresN 03:33, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge back to Undertale. Some of the entries on this list are simply editor opinions (WEBSITE's GOTY) or fan votes, and not real, jury-weighted awards. If they aren't supposed to be added in full articles, why should they be allowed here? Once you remove them, the list goes down to eight entries, which is way too few to support a split. I really don't see how or why somebody thought this list was worthy of becoming featured. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 04:11, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge There's no SIZE issue with this information in the original Undertale article, and thus the split to try to get this as FLC seems disinguine. (This is per a request from PresN at WT:VG for input). --Masem (t) 04:25, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Undertale. There is next to no reason to have this as a separate article considering how little there is in the way of actual content. This should not be a Featured List, or a Featured List candidate, whatsoever. Namcokid47 (Contribs) 04:39, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge the list is very small and there is no need to be separate from the original article.Blue Pumpkin Pie Chat Contribs 17:28, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge – since I've provided input on this but never a direct support or oppose I have to say I recommend merging as well sadly. – zmbro (talk) 17:35, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
FLC  Request withdrawn. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 18:34, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@PresN and Giants2008: Nominator wishes to withdraw FLC. Cowlibob (talk) 12:26, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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