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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of South Africa Test cricketers who have taken five wickets on debut/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by SchroCat 20:35, 1 March 2015 [1].

List of South Africa Test cricketers who have taken five wickets on debut edit

List of South Africa Test cricketers who have taken five wickets on debut (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): —Vensatry (ping) 07:05, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

User:Lugnuts created the basic article. I expanded the lead and tidied the list up a bit. Look forward to your comments —Vensatry (ping) 07:05, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Vensatry. Looks in great shape and as the same standard of the Pakistan article. I'll look for any obvious problems and fix them as needed. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 08:19, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The lead states "The five-wicket hauls have come against six different opponents, more frequently against England: 14 times." That's unsourced and the Pakistan article lists the number of times against the other teams too. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 08:22, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Added a ref. Since the SAF list is more than double the size of Pakistan, we need not list the frequency against every single opponent. —Vensatry (ping) 08:13, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 19:16, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "with 22 of them being South African cricketers." no need to repeat "cricketers".
  • "more frequently against " you mean "more against England than any other nation" - the frequency isn't the issue here, the sheer number is.
  • " 10 different venues, with six " would opt for ten rather than 10.
  • "Out of the 22 occasions, 12 have resulted in losses, six in victories and the rest were drawn" rephrase, something like, "Of the twenty-two matches where a South African has taken a five-wicket haul, twelve have ended in defeat, six in victory and the other four in a draw". Or something.
  • "The match happened to be his" happened to be -> was.
  • "As of January 2015, Sydney Burke and Alf Hall are the only South African debutants to collect ten or more wickets in a match.[10" this is interesting but it's jarring where it's placed, considering you're talking fivers before and after this single sentence....
  • "is the latest cricketer" -> "is the most recent South African..."
  • Link "figures" or "bowling figures" the first time.
  • "Vernon Philander has conceded the least number of runs while taking a fifer" -> "Vernon Philander has conceded the fewest runs while taking a fifer."
  • Is this Test debut or International debut? Are ODIs counted here? It's not clear from the title but I'm guessing it's just Test cricket, probably need to clarify that.

That's about it on a quick blast through. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:19, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Isn't it clear from the title when it reads "List of South Africa Test cricketers who have taken five wickets on debut"? Besides, there are only a handful of players who have taken a fifer on ODI debut. Donald is the only SAF cricketer among that. —Vensatry (ping) 18:22, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, I can see where my possible confusion came from. Perhaps it's "South Africa cricketers who have taken five wickets on Test debut"? After all, a Test cricketer could debut in other forms of the game.... The Rambling Man (talk) 19:15, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure I'm worried about other lists or some perceived convention. How about: "List of South Africa cricketers who have taken five wickets on Test debut"? Uses exactly the characters yet is more precise. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:06, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • This one looks perfect! I'm ready to move this page once we're done with this nomination. We can probably have a discussion at WT:CRIC so that every other page can be moved accordingly. —Vensatry (ping) 19:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
  • Vensatry, could you please tweak "with X (number) of them being". I find it so repetitive. Also, don't you think that the sixth line of the last para is long? I think it needs to be reworded into into separate shorter sentences. --FrankBoy (Buzz) 13:28, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand what's being repetitive here. Could you please be more specific? As for the second one, it's a parallel construction and I cannot think of an alternative at the moment. Thanks for the comments. —Vensatry (ping) 18:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the first paragraph, I can find three instances of it: "with 22 of them being South African players", "with fourteen of them coming against England", and "with six of them coming from the Newlands.." It's not a major concern, but it gets a little bit monotonous to read. I don't know if it can be reworded, but I feel it should be tweaked for a better prose. As far as the second one is concerned, I agree. --FrankBoy (Buzz) 18:53, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah, are you referring to the preposition? —Vensatry (ping) 19:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It looks great after the improvements suggested above, and it is well-referenced. --Carioca (talk) 21:15, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • "the" is needed before "Top 100 Bowling performances of all time".
  • Note 1: First word of "First class cricket" shouldn't be capitalized. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:04, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Harrias
;Comments from Harrias talk

Generally, the prose section needs a fair bit of work, I've listed a number of the most obvious concerns below:

  • The third sentence repeats "cricketers" unnecessarily; I would just finish the sentence ".. out of which 22 were South African."
  • The last few sentences in the first paragraph all sound a bit clunky: they could do with significant work to help the flow. Something more like; "Amongst the debut performances, there are a couple of prominent trends; fourteen of the twenty-two five-wicket hauls have been made against England, and six of the twenty-two were at the Newlands Cricket Ground in Cape Town. A debut five-wicket haul did not correlate with a victory for South Africa, as they only won six of the matches, losing twelve and drawing four."
    • Rephrased the text slightly. Where have I correlated the debut fifer with the result of the match? —Vensatry (ping) 09:21, 17 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the language that you do use, avoid Noun plus -ing, such as "..with six of them coming.."
  • Debutante refers to a girl being presented into "society", you want "debutant".
  • "The match was his only representation.." This seems a little clunky, "appearance" would probably be preferable.
  • The Alf Hall / Klusener sentence is very repetitive, the two halves are written in exactly the same format.
  • "Klusener's bowling figures along with George Bissett's 5 for 37 runs were included.." I think there should be commas around Bissett's part: "Klusener's bowling figures, along with George Bissett's 5 for 37 runs, were included.."
  • In the last sentence, "..stand next to.." isn't really encyclopaedic language: perhaps use "..is second only to.."

The Key only has a few minor issues:

  • For the date, the two options aren't needed, so it can just be "Starting date of the match."
  • I would move Inn. up to between Date and Overs, as that is where it appears horizontally.
  • The ‡ should specify that "The bowler took 10 wickets or more taken in the match."

The table is very good, all works as expected and looks professional. Harrias talk 16:16, 16 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • "..after the country started playing competitive cricket in 1991.." I think this needs to be clarified more for the non-expert. Perhaps, ".. after South Africa's return to international cricket in 1991.."
    • Added a FN —Vensatry (ping) 09:21, 17 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think this needs clarification inline, as at the moment it gives the impression that South Africa did not play competitive cricket at all before 1991. Harrias talk 13:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just the one above that I've responded to, I think. Harrias talk 13:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support – with two minor comments:

  • "A five-wicket haul on debut is regarded as a notable achievement by critics" is theoretically ambiguous and could be made fireproof if reordered as "A five-wicket haul on debut is regarded by critics as a notable achievement."
  • In the first para we have both "22" and "twenty-two" – either is fine, but we should be consistent.

Otherwise nothing but praise for a fine piece of work. Tim riley talk 08:05, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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