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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Deportation of Armenian notables on 24 April 1915/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Giants2008 10:01, 28 January 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Deportation of Armenian notables on 24 April 1915 edit

Deportation of Armenian notables on 24 April 1915 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Proudbolsahye (talk) 07:58, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because it is an extensive and very informative article about a part of world history few know. The article is prolifically sourced and is truly remarkably done. Nothing is left unsourced. It didn't pass GA only because it was recommended to FL. Looking forward for the review. Proudbolsahye (talk) 07:58, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion: I think that the red links that are used for most of the names on the table should be removed, per point 5a in the Wikipedia:Featured list criteria. --1ST7 (talk) 01:32, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just realized that this page wasn't watchlisted. I will get to removing the red links ASAP. Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
FIXED: Okay red links are now removed. Proudbolsahye (talk) 03:14, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Maybe the Armenian script under the names on the list should be removed as well; it might help the list to look cleaner and enhance visual appeal. Also, I found an image of ten of the Armenian intellectuals who were killed during the deportations; I thought that it would make a better picture for the lead and moved the one that was previously in the lead down a little to another section in the article. I hope that's alright with you. --1ST7 (talk) 06:26, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@1ST7: Thanks for the wonderful addition to the article. I just sent the photograph to the graphics lab since I figured it needs a lot of improvement. As for the Armenian scripture, it's hard for me to say whether we should remove it since these intellectuals were strictly Armenian reading, writing, and speaking people. I also personally believe that it is good for research purposes. Their names are prevalent throughout many Armenian written sources and novels. But then again, this is just my opinion. Nevertheless, I am fine with removing it if there's consensus against it. I say we wait for additional opinions on that matter. Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:55, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Another suggestion: Genocide Remembrance Day is mentioned in the lead but not in the rest of the article. I think a section needs to be added on that subject, per WP:LEAD. You can include information on when the day was first established, who it is commemorated by (I believe April 15 is also designated to commemorate the Assyrian Genocide), and how it is commemorated. You could also use one of these images. --1ST7 (talk) 07:46, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@1ST7: That's a valid consideration. When I have time this weekend, I'll add a little bit about Armenian Genocide remembrance day. Much of that information is already found on other articles...I can incorporate them from there. Proudbolsahye (talk) 08:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@1ST7: I added the section but it needs a nice CE. If you can help me out with a CE that'll be great. Proudbolsahye (talk) 23:49, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to help, but I can't do it at the moment. If you can wait until tomorrow, I should be able to then. --1ST7 (talk) 07:28, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, done. --1ST7 (talk) 03:04, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Can we get a review here? Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:14, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I'm finding the prose in the body to be really choppy and oddly worded, and the flow of the text as a whole is disjointed- you don't adhere very strongly to a narrative timeline, and it reads like a scattering of facts whose primary purpose is to shame the perpetrators rather than inform the reader. A few examples of problems I found listed below.
  • "May 1915, they were later relocated, within the Empire" - second comma unnecessary -  DoneProudbolsahye (talk) 06:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Most who commemorate the Armenian Genocide believe that 24 April 1915 is the date" - "consider 24 April 1915 to be the date" sounds better to my ears -  Done Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "holiday in Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh Republic" - "the" before Nagorno  Done Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Detention section, it should probably be combined into fewer, longer paragraphs- they're a bit short.  DoneProudbolsahye (talk) 06:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At Constantinople, the action was operated" - "In Constantinople, the action was led"  DoneProudbolsahye (talk) 06:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The third paragraph of Detention is really choppy, and should be re-flowed  Done Proudbolsahye (talk) 04:50, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The train was under way with 220 Armenians" - tense change, sounds like a copyvio.  Done Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "band of brigands" - sensational language; they were a state-sponsored paramilitary group  DoneProudbolsahye (talk) 06:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Marzbed was dispatched to Kayseri" - who's Marzbed?  Done Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The whole Court martial section seems out of place- you're talking about all the prisoners arriving at the prisons, then suddenly you're calling out the assassination of a couple of them and the court martial of another, with their longer-term consequences, before jumping back to the release of several others.
  • Three different top-level sections in a row with 1-2 short paragraphs each is really wonky. It would be a lot better to split the whole thing into deportation/detention and aftermath.  Done Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:43, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The table could use some sorting ability. Done Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:54, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The actual work should be in italics in ref 3, and it needs more information overall, and given that you translate all the other Armenian in the refs you should translate this. Done (Removed Ref) Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:54, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 40 and 50 need more detail, and 50 needs to drop the all-caps  Done (They are now refs 39 and 49 respectively) Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:54, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The notes need capitals at the beginning of each one and a period at the end.  Done Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:54, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

--PresN 01:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Alright, I'm fine with the work done above. Remaining issues:
  • You have the names in the table alphabetical by last name, but they sort by first name when you sort the column. See the {{sortname}} template, or just the {{sort}} template.  Done Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:27, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A few rows in the table have no source for any of their columns: Vartabed Garabed Mkrtichian, Hagop Tekeyan, Dz. Vartabed Yervant Perdahjian, and Bedros Kahanay Garabedian.  Done (I removed them since they're unsourced) Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:39, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
--PresN 18:37, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I see prior issues were addressed with due diligence, above. I find the page to be most meticulously sourced with appropriate references, and with the extra notes quite educational and informative for the reader. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 07:40, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Since I'm an Armenian user, I would like to avoid supporting the nomination. Instead, I want to make several minor edits that will improve the article a bit. --Երևանցի talk 21:39, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I partly improved the referencing format. It's still a little confusing and I'll try to work on it later, too. I also added an infobox.
I wanna do is add a simple map that will show the key locations (Constantinople, Ayaş, Çankırı, Diyarbakır, etc) of the deportations on the 1914 Ottoman Empire map. --Երևանցի talk 23:52, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Proudbolsahye, do you think a map is necessary? --Երևանցի talk 23:52, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good with me Yerevantsi. Also, have you been able to assess the issues PresN presented above? Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:46, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now, the sorting thing will take some time to complete, but I can definitely do it. I don't know about the unsourced individuals.--Երևանցի talk 20:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done with the sorting. --Երևանցի talk 02:26, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Map added. --Երևանցի talk 04:15, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Okay, I fixed all the aforementioned issues. Thanks Yerevantsi for your diligent effort for bringing about the wonderful sort-ability. The map looks nice too. Now people will know where those cities are without actually clicking on the Wikilinks to find out. I just removed the "Date of Deportation" column since it was unnecessary. 99% of the deportees were deported on the same day (24 April 1915). I clarified the exceptions in the Notes column. @PresN: Let me know if any other changes are needed. Thanks for all the wonderful support. Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:39, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - alright, that's all my concerns addressed, so support. --PresN 05:45, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmmm Since this is a sensitive subject, I strongly encourage to change all the instances of Constantinople to Istanbul - the common usage in the current English. Nergaal (talk) 22:07, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment @Nergaal: I believe there is already a consensus instated among Wikipedians that when referring to Istanbul prior to the formal adoption of the name on March 28, 1930, we must use Constantinople. Let me know whether my response helped the concern you've raised. Nevertheless, I am willing to change it. I just want the consensus to be considered when it comes to the name since it certainly has been a contentious issue in the Wikipedia community. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:16, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hadn't realized that the change was so late. Perhaps mention "currently Istanbul" after the first usage? Nergaal (talk) 22:21, 22 December 2013 (UTC)  Done Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I think that the current title does a disservice to the article. "Notables" is not a common usage in current English, and I think you were referring to "Notable people".
The intro does very little to discuss the content of the table. How many people were deported? Were all the people in the table deported on April 24?
Who is not included in the table?
Perhaps change the title to "List of notable Armenians deported on 24 April 1915"?

Nergaal (talk) 22:20, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Nergaal: Thanks for raising these questions. In response to the concerns you have raised:
  • The article states 2,345 Armenians were detained. All of whom were deported. I have just provided extra clarification for this and an extra ref for additional verification.
  • My recent edit here removed the category of the deportation date. It was taking up too much space but more importantly, it was very repetitive. Almost all, with the exception of 5 deportees, were deported on the same day. The article uses 24 April 1915 as the base date for the deportations. I have provided additional clarifications for the 5 exceptions in the Notes column of the corresponding deportees (i.e. See: Krikor Zohrab). Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The table is limited to the deportees as made available by the Ottoman Archives and Armenian sources. The article already states this, "Below is a list of prominent Armenian intellectuals, community leaders and other public figures that were deported from Constantinople on 24 April 1915, as made available by the Ottoman Archives and Armenian sources"
  • I am willing to change the name of the article. The article itself has gone through a lot of name changes. The talk page of the article highlights some of these changes and the reasons behind them. "List of notable Armenians deported in April 1915" doesn't sound like a bad idea, however, I believe the specific date of 24 April 1915 should be added since the date itself is very important to the commemoration of the event itself. I also might want to suggest to carry this topic of discussion to the talk page, so as to not go back and forth in the nomination page. If we agree on a name change, we can come back with a definitive solution here. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • I would like a little more background. What were the notables accused of? Campaigning for Armenian independence? Working to overthrow the Sultanate?
  • I assume that this was the first phase of the genocide which eventually murdered over 1 million. If so, this should be stated.
  • How is a notable defined? The article says 2435 were deported, which seems a high number.
  • "The 24th of April has become Genocide Remembrance Day". The date is not generally observed by non-Armenians. I think it would be clearer if you shifted the last clause in the paragraph to make "The 24th of April is observed by the Armenian diaspora around the world as Genocide Remembrance Day".
  • "first commemorated in 1919 as in observance of its four-year anniversary in Constantinople". This seems ungrammatical and unclear. Commemorated in Istanbul or by Armenians elsewhere of events in Istanbul? (I see this is explained below. Perhaps leave out "as in observance of its four-year anniversary").
  • Why mention those with Russian citizenship? If they were treated differently from the others this should be explained.
  • "Most of the arrested were sent after identification of the particulars from Central Prison". "after identification of the particulars" is superfluous. I would leave it out.
  • "right away tried in vain". "right away" is a bit colloquial. I would prefer "immediately".
  • "Roughly 150 political prisoners were detained in Ayaş, and another 150 intellectual prisoners were detained in Çankırı." Were the prisoners separated into politicals and intellectuals?
  • "Mazhar Bey defied the secret instructions of Talat Pasha, the Interior Minister." What secret instructions?

Dudley Miles (talk) 13:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delegate comments
Oppose owing to titling and selection concerns.
    • Why is the title "notables"? What criteria is used in determining that?
    • Armenia - why is this linked so late?
    • This list does not include 2,455 people (so it is not a full list), nor does it contain only blue links (thus it is not a list of all of them who have Wikipedia articles). What exactly is the selection criteria for this list? If many of the names are not known or recorded (in which case "notables" would be a vast overstatement), this should be noted. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:11, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Although Proudbolsahye is the nominator and it would be better if he addresses these issues, I'd like to respond to Crisco's comments. 1) You are right about the use of "notables". I very much doubt all these people were notable, even within the Armenian community of Constantinople. I know up to 20 people from the list, with 5 of them being very famous and recognizable by most Armenians. I think "intellectuals" would be a good replacement. 2) The modern Republic of Armenia (which is only a small part of the pre-genocide Armenia) had no direct relation to this event. Constantinople had more Armenians than any other city in the world at that time, but it is still outside Armenia. It's somewhat comparable to Kristallnacht and Israel. 3) The list is of all known people "as made available by the Ottoman Archives and Armenian sources". --Երևանցի talk 04:49, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • "as made available by the Ottoman Archives and Armenian sources" does not automatically indicate that there are no more sources. This needs to be explicit. Otherwise the list could be understood as the writer being uninitiated and not wanting to do archive diving (for instance). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"does not automatically indicate that there are no more sources" well who claims it does? This list was created based on major works dealing with the deportation. Those sources are Teotig, Grigoris Balakian and others. I think it might be a good idea to clearly indicate the sources somewhere in the article? --Երևանցի talk 01:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The question is not indicating the sources, it is indicating why 2,000+ individuals are represented by 20 (over half of whom are not Wikipedia notable). That's not a comprehensive list. Period. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:06, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The list is of Armenians deported on April 24 1915. I amended the sentence that presents the list to further emphasize this point and to clarify any sort of misunderstanding. Indeed, the April 24 deportations are considered the first wave of deportations while the 2,345 figure is the total amount of all deportees which eventually took place from April 24 and thereon. I had to remove the category of "Date deported" column here because it was overly redundant and it took up too much space. There are however a few notable exceptions which have been specified in the Notes column of the corresponding deportees (i.e. Krikor Zohrab). Proudbolsahye (talk) 10:54, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • If 24 people were deported on the first day, why is that information not in the lede? I mean, this is basic writing. And the issue with "notables" has still not been addressed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:09, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I just requested a move to "Deportation of Armenian intellectuals on 24 April 1915". See more here. --Երևանցի talk 16:34, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have also amended the lead to better suit the list as suggested by other users here at the nomination page. Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:21, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Question In the lead it says "most were killed" (without a citation) but in the list, 78 are listed as being killed out of 235 to 270. Unless you mean most of the total number? If so that is not clear, and a citation should be provided. Mattximus (talk) 02:57, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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