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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Susianna Kentikian

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:07, 25 June 2008 [1].

Susianna Kentikian edit

Self-nomination. This is a short article I've been working on, which I believe meets the FA criteria. It's currently a good article (see nomination here), a peer review is archived here. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 04:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support comments An interesting read, since I know nothing about the subject. I thought there was a slightly newsy edge to the text, which occasionally led to infelicities. jimfbleak (talk) 05:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Issues resolved to my satisfaction jimfbleak (talk) 07:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. First mention of nation says female boxer from Germany – only later do we find she’s not German, better to put nationality first, then say she lives in Germany
    Done.
  2. knockout my in-line spellchecker says "knock out" or "knock-out", but it's UK spelling and this article is in US (defense) so perhaps it's correct there?
    Well, the WP article says knockout, so I guess that's the 'official' WP nomenclature, but it's all the same to me really.
  3. asylum seekers' homes owned by refugees or government facilities?
    Most likely government (city) facilities, but do you really think that is relevant? One of the next sentences, "again living in government facilities for asylum seekers" does imply that anyway.
  4. and only the intervention of, among others, her amateur trainer, Frank Rieth, calling lawyers, the media, and local politicians, avoided their final expulsion. surely could be better phrased
    I slightly reworded it, but to be honest, I couldn't think of much right now. Suggestions would be appreciated;)
  5. was discovered as a professional boxer by?
    I'm afraid the exact person who discovered her is unknown.
  6. a cut by Zurita really?
    I changed it to "was cut over the left eyebrow"?
  7. She also filmed a four-round sparring session would have been easier to get someone else to hold the camera
    "took part"?, not sure what might be an adequate replacement here
  8. Christina Surer und Markus Beyer Nien
    Fixed. giggy (:O) 07:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (edit conflict with above; sorry if there are any duplicates)

  • The references need some formatting work... all dates need to be wikilinked (per MOS:SYL). Also, website titles don't need italics (see MOS:ITALICS)
    • Done.
  • "and she now lives with her family in an apartment near her Hamburg boxing gym.[5] She is currently applying for German citizenship.[10]" - WP:RECENTISM... I think you should reword so it's more like "in 2007, she..." wherever possible.
    • The exact time they moved in is not known, so I'm not sure how this could be rephrased. The second sentence could of course be easily changed once her citizenship is resolved.
      • Good point... I suppose if they do end up moving you can change/update it (with a known date), and same for citizenship. Just make sure you do! :-) giggy (:O) 13:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which caused additional problems" - kind of a "duh" moment here... I don't think you need to say that.
    • Done.
  • "was stopped following a cut by Zurita" - what's a cut?
    • A cut is a laceration, a rather common boxing term, you really think this should be further explained here?
      • Heh... I was thinking there's a move (like a "hook"). Note to self; be less intelligent. Yeah, not a problem. giggy (:O) 13:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The fight was voted among the five "Top Fights of the Year" by WomenBoxing.com." - should the website have italics?
    • Done.
  • "Early on, Kentikian was considered one of the big talents in German boxing" - this implies she isn't anymore...
    • Not sure I agree with you here, but even so, would it be wrong? Once you are an accomplished athlete, you are no longer considered a mere talent, I guess?
      • The way I see it, being seen as a talent is different to being proven as a talent - she's reached the latter now as a pro. giggy (:O) 13:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • How about "Even at the start of her career, Kentikian was considered one of the big talents in German boxing ..."? EnemyOfTheState (talk) 14:59, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Yup, that works fine. giggy (:O) 02:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Overall a nice article, thanks for your work on it! giggy (:O) 07:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to address your concerns. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 05:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. giggy (:O) 02:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • What makes http://www.boxrec.com/index.php a reliable source?
  • Sources used in the article don't need to be listed in the external links section
    • Maybe not, but does it hurt? The Boxrec and WomenBoxing.com links are two informative sites and I doubt many readers go through the reference section to find them. I can take them out, of course, if you think that is necessary.
      • I'm not such an MOS guru that I know if that's a requirement or merely a suggestion. Striking it (grins) Ealdgyth - Talk 19:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes http://www.womenboxing.com/index.html a reliable source?
  • Can't even find an about us page, but they seem to be owned by Freitag Marketing Services, which sounds promotional. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I recognize that these websites don't rival the NY Times for reliability, but both are news websites with editorial oversight. Fightnews is the best known boxing news site, while WomenBoxing.com is the leading website on female boxing. They are not blogs or fan sites. The main reason those sites are used is really to increase the number of English language sources; I could probably replace them with German sources, but I doubt that would be desirable.
Otherwise sources look good, the links all checked out with the link checker tool. I wasn't able to evaluate the reliablity of the non-English sources Ealdgyth - Talk 13:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Boxrec is also used in Michael Gomez, which is also at FAC right now. You asked about the site on the Gomez talk page, and got a response that it was referred to by mainstream media. If it's an issue here, it will be for Gomez as well; if you think Boxrec isn't reliable you should say so at the Gomez FAC too. I'll try to find more media mentions later. Giants2008 (talk) 15:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Or, I could just being spacey and forgot about the Gomez one. Not a worry now. Thanks for reminding me. (Work is keeping me hopping this week, so expect more than the usual spaceyness...) Ealdgyth - Talk 16:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the German sources, I can assure you that Der Spiegel, Die Welt, Die Zeit, Hamburger Abendblatt are all respected newspapers/magazines that should be considered reliable sources. Also, almost the same text is a good article on the German WP (de:Susianna Kentikian) which uses the same sources. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 05:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Better reliable foreign language sources than non-reliable English language sources, especially as this is a BLP. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I replaced all references that used Fightnews.com or WomenBoxing.com articles. I used http://www.eastsideboxing.com/ (and its sister site http://www.boxingnews24.com/) to source the world title fights, because from what I understand, this website was deemed reliable during the Michael Gomez FAC. The only WomenBoxing source that remains is a reference about a "fight of the year" award from that website. If this self-referencing should be unacceptable as well, that sentence must be removed. EnemyOfTheState (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They would be reliable for the fact that they gave an award, yes. All done, looks like to me! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Issues resolved Giants2008 (talk) 02:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - This is the article that I relate to most out of all my reviews to this point. I have experience working on a lesser-known female athlete, and seeing this become featured would give me great hope that I could get an article featured at some point. There is still work to do, however. The comments above are a great start, and here are some from me.

  • I rarely take issue with the first sentence, but I have a problem with "female boxer". We try to use gender-neutral language here; I recommend changing it to "professional boxer". For an example, see Laila Ali.
    • Done.
  • Two consecutive sentences start with she. Change one of them.
    • Done.
  • Early life: "the daughter of veterinary doctor Levon and his wife Makruki Kentikian." Try "Levon Kentikian and his wife Makruki." I'm not even crazy about that and think the veterinary part gets in the way. Can this be moved to a later sentence?
    • I changed that, though I'm not sure where the veterinary doctor could be moved, other than an own sentence, and that seems a bit redundant?
  • Third sentence of section is a borderline run-on.
    • I'm not sure what sentence you are referring to exactly.
      • "In 1992, the family first moved to Berlin, Germany, and stayed at asylum seekers' homes, but due to the violence at these facilities and their poor knowledge of the German language, they left Berlin and moved to Moldova and later to Russia, where Kentikian went to school for a short period of time." This is a prime candidate to be split into two sentences. Giants2008 (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done. (I just started a new sentence with the 'but', not sure if you wanted the whole sentence to be restructured) EnemyOfTheState (talk) 19:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The family returned to Germany in 1996, relocating in Hamburg, again living in government facilities for asylum seekers." I prefer "The family returned to Germany in 1996 and relocated in Hamburg,".
    • Done.
  • The sentence after the previous comment has a ton of commas; I count nine. Can this be tightened up?
    • As I mentioned above, I slightly reworded it, but couldn't think of much at the moment. Suggestions would be appreciated;)
      • It looks a little better now. It's just naturally comma-heavy and I'm not sure it can be changed easily. A couple more suggestions here: change from "calling" to "who called" and "avoided" to "prevented". Giants2008 (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I assume three-year professional contract is referring to boxing. State this to avoid confusion.
    • Done.
      • I actually wanted clarification for the Early life section, since it is the contract's first mention. Should have made this clearer. Giants2008 (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amateur career: "and her ambition always to attack the opponent until knockout" Reword to "and her ambition to always attack until she knocked out the opponent,".
    • Done.
  • Professional career: Link unanimous decision. A reader who knows nothing about boxing won't know the difference between this and a split decision.
    • Done.
  • "proved to be a first test in Kentikian's professional career" Picky, but I'd rather see "the first test of Kentikian's professional career".
    • Done.
  • A Hamburg link isn't required here because there was one earlier.
    • Done. (I suppose you were talking about the fourth paragraph)
  • Kentikian in the media: A person's name shouldn't be in the title, so this should be "In the media", "Media figure" or something similar.
    • Done.
  • Spotlight Boxing is linked earlier in the article. So is Regina Halmich, but I'm undecided on whether you should remove her duplicate link because she seems like an important figure in Kentikian's story.
    • I took out the Spotlight Boxing link, since the text directly explains that term, but I think linking Halmich again is probably a good idea.
  • The suggestion above gives me an idea. What does Halmich think of Kentikian? Is she complimentary of her or is there some kind of rivalry between the two?
    • She is complimentary of her and considers Kentikian her legitimate successor. But I'm not sure where to include such a statement in the text and whether it would be even relevant.
      • It doesn't appear to be a great fit anywhere. Just trying to come up with a new idea. Giants2008 (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another prose suggestion: "World Wok Championships, where she teamed with Sven Hannawald, Christina Surer and Markus Beyer to win the four-person competition." I think this is a nice improvement over the current writing.
    • Done.
  • I see an oddity in current reference 20. It lists the publisher as Fightnews.com, but the link goes to WomenBoxing.com. It might well be correct, but I just wanted to ask about it.
    • Fixed.

That's it from me. Thank goodness for short articles. I'm pulling for this one, so please take care of these for me. Giants2008 (talk) 01:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to address all your concerns. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 05:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The only thing preventing me from supporting is the source concerns above. If the only reliable references for this article are foreign-language, so be it. Of course it would be better to have English-language references on the English Wikipedia, but if they aren't from quality sources you should go with German ones. Giants2008 (talk) 17:54, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Perhaps wikilink the dates and accessdates in the references so they format according to user preferences? Gary King (talk) 04:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Looks perfect to me, well sourced and well-written. Congratulations! Idontknow610TM 17:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I'm satisfied that this is good enough now after the various fixes. This will be an interesting test case to see how a shorter article does at FAC, and I'll be pulling for it. Giants2008 (talk) 02:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Query; why are all the publishers italicized in the citations? See WP:ITALICS, periodicals, journals, newspapers and magazines are in italics, websites are not. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Generally support, but still a bit of polishing to do on the writing.

  • "called-up"—not a double adjective, so hyphen should be removed.
  • "But" at the start of a sentence is usually deprecated in favour of "However,". Don't ask me why, but it's a widely observed practice.
  • Usually I think there are too few commas in nominations; here, there are a few too many in places: "Her family received a permanent residence permit in 2005, when she signed a three-year professional boxing contract that established a stable income." And the third sentence at the top, again before "when". And "until she knocked out the opponent, earned her the nickname". I think someone else should go through it with a hawke's eye on those odd commas, although most are good.
  • A distinctly WPian disease I call "startitis": "Kentikian began working as a cleaner". Just "Kentikian worked as a cleaner ...".
  • "as very few boxers wanted to face her"—It's stronger without the "very".
  • Overlinking: Anglophone countries really don't want to be linked even once, but you've done this repeatedly. Nor "Germany" for a second time. These ones dilute your valuable links and splash bright blue needlessly.
  • Table's pretty good.
  • "outside of"—spot the redundant word.

A new person to sift through the whole article would be good: shouldn't take a copy-editor too long. TONY (talk) 13:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed all of that, except for the "Kentikian began working as a cleaner" sentence. Your suggestion would also change the meaning of it: having worked only at the age of 16. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 14:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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