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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Spider-Man (2018 video game)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 18 September 2019 [1].

Spider-Man (2018 video game) edit

Nominator(s): Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 16:42, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 2018 superhero action adventure video game Spider-Man. Critically praised, it has been called the definitive take on the superhero in the medium akin to the Arkham games for Batman. It is as complete as it can be sans information on a sequel and following copy edits and a thorough GAN, it is ready to ascend and become the Superior Spider-Man article. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 16:42, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Aoba47 edit

  • I would recommend adding ALT text to the infobox image.
  • I have a question about this sentence (Based on the Marvel Comics superhero Spider-Man, it is inspired by the long-running comic book mythology and adaptations in other media.). It seems rather wordy at the moment and seems these parts (Based on the Marvel Comics superhero Spider-Man) and (inspired by the long-running comic book mythology) repeat the same genereal information that the game was inspired by the Spider-man comics. I was wondering if there was a way to simplify the prose? Maybe to something like (It is based on the Marvel Comics superhero Spider-Man, including his adaptions in other media) unless I am missing something?
  • I would make sure the citations are in numeric order. I see a few instances where this is not the case.
  • For this sentence (The character can precisely aim webs to pull himself towards specific points), shouldn't it be "the player" instead of "the character" as you are referring to the amount of control the player has with the character and gameplay.
  • A wikilink for the term "radial menu" would be helpful to unfamiliar readers; I am familiar with the concept, but I have never heard the title before so I was a little confused there.
  • Would this sentence (Spider-Man has several unlockable suits that are based on existing versions of the character in media) be a good spot to link to the "adaptations in other media" article? From what I see, I can only see the wikilink in the lead, but not in the body of the article and this sentence seems to be the first place that Spiderman's other media appearances are mentioned.
  • I am assuming that the word "token" (i.e. Research Token, Backpack Token, etc.) is capitalized in the game, but I just want to double-check that.
  • Mary Jane Watson is linked twice in the body of the article. The same comment applies to Miles Morales.
  • Why do some parts of the "Plot" section have citations while others do not?
  • For this part (and Art director Jacinda Chew (middle) speaking about the game at the 2018), I do not believe "Art" needs to be capitalized.
  • I have a question about this part (without a formal agreement in place, discussions about the potential new project were not recorded.) What is meant by "were not recorded"? Like the audio was not recorded or the full details of the meeting were not put down anywhere? I am assuming there must be some record of this meeting since it is included in this article. I am probably overthinking this part, but some clarification would be helpful.
  • The last part of the second paragraph of the "Development" section does not have a citation.
  • The first time you mention DLC in the body of the article is here (He said they wanted to keep players engaged, starting with the Spider-Man: The City that Never Sleeps DLC,), but you do not fully spell out the acronym until later. I would move that up to this sentence since it is the first time it is mentioned, and I would wikilink it like you did in the lead.
  • For this sentence (Peter's relationship with Otto Octavius came from a desire to give Peter a job that embraced his intelligence.), I think you could get away with replacing the second "Peter" with "him" to avoid the repetition of the character's name and I think most readers would understand the meaning from context.
  • I have a question for this sentence (Intihar described Otto and Peter as parallels of each other.). Did Intihar specify what these parallels are?
  • For this part (and Li is incarcerated at a nearby maximum-security prison called The Raft.), you capitalize the "The" in "The Raft", but you do not do it anywhere else so I would make sure to be consistent one way or the other.
  • I have a question about this part (Before dying, May reveals she knows he is Spider-Man and that she is proud of him.). I have never played this game so apologies if this is obvious, but does May die not matter what choice the player makes regarding how the antidote is used?
  • For this image caption (Creative director Bryan Intihar (left) and Art director Jacinda Chew (middle) speaking about the game at the 2018 San Diego Comic-Con.), it should not have a period at the end since it is not a full sentence. Also, do you know the person to the right? It seems odd to only mention two people in the caption when three are present in the image.
  • There are some instances where four citations are used. I could see some reviewers raising questions about Wikipedia:Citation overkill for these parts. I do not have an issue with it, but I just wanted to raise your attention to it.
  • I would move the "origin story" wikilink up to this sentence (The team avoided retelling Spider-Man's origin, reasoning "everyone kind of knows Spider-Man was bitten by a spider.") instead since that is what "origin" is referencing and it comes first in the body of the article.
  • For this part (describing it as a more streamlined version of the physics-based system used in Spider-Man 2,), I would include the year the game was published.
  • I would add the year that Batman: Arkham Knight was released.
  • I have a question about this part (The game also became one of the best-selling Western-developed PS4 titles there, being surpassed only by Call of Duty and Minecraft,). I am assuming that the sentence was referencing individual games, but the Call of Duty link goes to the franchise page?
  • The "Mateo, Alex" citation has an error message.
  • The "Saveedra, John" citation has an incorrect link to the Den of Geek page.

Great work with the article! I am not a particularly good FAC reviewer, but I hope that I was able to help at least somewhat. I certainly admire you for taking on a subject matter that has received so much coverage as it can be quite difficult to balance everything and account for everything so bravo for that. Once my comments are addressed, I will be more than happy to support this for promotion. If you have the time, I would greatly appreciate any feedback on my current FAC? Either way, it was a pleasure to read this. Makes me realize how little I know of comics lol. Aoba47 (talk) 21:27, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would recommend adding ALT text to the infobox image.
  • I have a question about this sentence (Based on the Marvel Comics superhero Spider-Man, it is inspired by the long-running comic book mythology and adaptations in other media.). It seems rather wordy at the moment and seems these parts (Based on the Marvel Comics superhero Spider-Man) and (inspired by the long-running comic book mythology) repeat the same genereal information that the game was inspired by the Spider-man comics. I was wondering if there was a way to simplify the prose? Maybe to something like (It is based on the Marvel Comics superhero Spider-Man, including his adaptions in other media) unless I am missing something?
I get what you are saying, it is actually based on the Batman: Arkham Asylum through to Batman: Arkham Knight articles which feature similar openings. I know we're saying the Marvel Comics character Spider-Man since that is the origin, by saying it is based on the history of comics and media, I think it's just addressing that it is based on both. Whereas if I said "Based on the Marvel Comics character Spider-Man and his adaptations in other media" it reads (to me) like it's based largely on his adaptations in other media. Might just be me though. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would make sure the citations are in numeric order. I see a few instances where this is not the case.
  • For this sentence (The character can precisely aim webs to pull himself towards specific points), shouldn't it be "the player" instead of "the character" as you are referring to the amount of control the player has with the character and gameplay.
  • A wikilink for the term "radial menu" would be helpful to unfamiliar readers; I am familiar with the concept, but I have never heard the title before so I was a little confused there.
  • Would this sentence (Spider-Man has several unlockable suits that are based on existing versions of the character in media) be a good spot to link to the "adaptations in other media" article? From what I see, I can only see the wikilink in the lead, but not in the body of the article and this sentence seems to be the first place that Spiderman's other media appearances are mentioned.
  • I am assuming that the word "token" (i.e. Research Token, Backpack Token, etc.) is capitalized in the game, but I just want to double-check that.
Yes it's capitalized. If you YouTube Spider-Man PS4 Tokens, it comes up there. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 19:19, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mary Jane Watson is linked twice in the body of the article. The same comment applies to Miles Morales.
  • Why do some parts of the "Plot" section have citations while others do not?
They were the sections that I felt were most challengable since the scenes occur in optional content or late in the game.Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part (and Art director Jacinda Chew (middle) speaking about the game at the 2018), I do not believe "Art" needs to be capitalized.
  • I have a question about this part (without a formal agreement in place, discussions about the potential new project were not recorded.) What is meant by "were not recorded"? Like the audio was not recorded or the full details of the meeting were not put down anywhere? I am assuming there must be some record of this meeting since it is included in this article. I am probably overthinking this part, but some clarification would be helpful.
  • I tweaked this a little. It means that they were basically "unofficial" conversations since they couldn't commit officially. They've obviously mentioned them in interviews since but at the time it was just basically like coffee chats rather than signing contracts. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last part of the second paragraph of the "Development" section does not have a citation.
  • The first time you mention DLC in the body of the article is here (He said they wanted to keep players engaged, starting with the Spider-Man: The City that Never Sleeps DLC,), but you do not fully spell out the acronym until later. I would move that up to this sentence since it is the first time it is mentioned, and I would wikilink it like you did in the lead.
  • For this sentence (Peter's relationship with Otto Octavius came from a desire to give Peter a job that embraced his intelligence.), I think you could get away with replacing the second "Peter" with "him" to avoid the repetition of the character's name and I think most readers would understand the meaning from context.
  • I have a question for this sentence (Intihar described Otto and Peter as parallels of each other.). Did Intihar specify what these parallels are?
Not much but I added the ones he mentioned. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part (and Li is incarcerated at a nearby maximum-security prison called The Raft.), you capitalize the "The" in "The Raft", but you do not do it anywhere else so I would make sure to be consistent one way or the other.
  • I have a question about this part (Before dying, May reveals she knows he is Spider-Man and that she is proud of him.). I have never played this game so apologies if this is obvious, but does May die not matter what choice the player makes regarding how the antidote is used?
Yes she always dies. I've reworded this a little to emphasise that she is seconds from death. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this image caption (Creative director Bryan Intihar (left) and Art director Jacinda Chew (middle) speaking about the game at the 2018 San Diego Comic-Con.), it should not have a period at the end since it is not a full sentence. Also, do you know the person to the right? It seems odd to only mention two people in the caption when three are present in the image.
I didn't know who the other person was because I couldn't see the name placard, but I've did some sleuthing through images from the same event and found who it was and added it. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 19:19, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are some instances where four citations are used. I could see some reviewers raising questions about Wikipedia:Citation overkill for these parts. I do not have an issue with it, but I just wanted to raise your attention to it.
I had a quick look through and I can only see 4+ in the reception section, but I felt they were for claims that needed backing up. I think the rarity of the use is OK, but if it becomes an issue for others I'll take a look at whittling them down. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would move the "origin story" wikilink up to this sentence (The team avoided retelling Spider-Man's origin, reasoning "everyone kind of knows Spider-Man was bitten by a spider.") instead since that is what "origin" is referencing and it comes first in the body of the article.
  • For this part (describing it as a more streamlined version of the physics-based system used in Spider-Man 2,), I would include the year the game was published.
  • I would add the year that Batman: Arkham Knight was released.
  • I have a question about this part (The game also became one of the best-selling Western-developed PS4 titles there, being surpassed only by Call of Duty and Minecraft,). I am assuming that the sentence was referencing individual games, but the Call of Duty link goes to the franchise page?
This was to the series because the source just says Call of Duty, which could b elike one of 4000 games, but I've done some digging and it is Black Ops 4. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 19:19, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Mateo, Alex" citation has an error message.
  • The "Saveedra, John" citation has an incorrect link to the Den of Geek page.

Thank you for addressing everything. I support this for promotion. Your responses make sense to me so thank you for the clarifications. Have a great start to your weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 21:39, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by Nikkimaria edit

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Marvel's_Spider-Man_Web_Traversal_System.webm: this is being used for commentary on gameplay elements, rather than on this particular video - the given licensing tag does not apply.
  • Marvel's_Spider-Man_Official_Theme.mp3 exceeds 10% of the original - see WP:SAMPLE
  • File:Marvel's_Spider-Man_stand_at_E3_2018.jpg: think the copyrightable elements of the stand would exceed de minimis in this case. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:17, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I added alt text.
I don't know what you mean. There's no other video related tag I can see at Category:Wikipedia_non-free_file_copyright_templates that I can use as an alternative.
I mean, rather than using the promotional video to illustrate gameplay, we should use a user-created playthrough. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:56, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is user created, I created it from my version of the game. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 19:52, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ahhhh, okay, that wasn't clear to me from the image description. In that case we'll just want to switch to a generic fair-use tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:14, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I've replaced the tag. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:51, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reduced
Again not 100% what you mean, but any materials in that image are for marketing purposes and so are designed to be seen, and they're all too small, off-angle, and/or obscured to be of any kind of underhanded use. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:44, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately "designed to be seen" isn't the same as "appropriately licensed". Nikkimaria (talk) 17:56, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. Well who can I ask to make that judgement? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 19:52, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What judgement are you referring to? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:14, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If it definitively exceeds de minimis. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:51, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't expect you'll get "definitive" since this is a judgment call, but perhaps Jo-Jo Eumerus or Kees08 could be called upon to give a second opinion? They've also provided image reviews at FAC lately. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:42, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
De minimis is a thorny matter. Regarding File:Marvel's Spider-Man stand at E3 2018.jpg, I'd say it's probably too much - it's essentially a photo of copyrighted artwork, which is central to the image and its use in our articles. Commons:De minimis has little case law, but in terms of how Commons has handled these it seems like the closest equivalent would be "File:Cover Austria 1938-650px.jpg" which was deleted. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:16, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I have not dealt with De minimis yet, whether that strengthens or weakens what I will say is up to you. If any of these elements are copyrightable, then it would fail de minimis. So let's explicitly say what the copyrightable elements are. I believe File:Spider-Man-PS4-2018.png this portion is not (though that file probably was not made in the year 18, so the page could use a little fixing). Plain text is not copyrightable. Then there is a model of Spiderman, as well as the set design behind him. I think the model of Spiderman is copyrightable because of Commons:Freedom of panorama. I'm not sure on the set design since it is 2D Artwork, but with the 3D model of Spiderman included, I believe the point is moot. Based on that, I think the image should be removed from the article and DR'ed on Commons. If anyone thinks I am way off base let me know. Kees08 (Talk) 22:59, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Out of curiosity, what would your judgement be on this Nikkimaria, Kees08, Jo-Jo Eumerus? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:18, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Check out this discussion. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:34, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, it's a confusing issue. Costumes are ok, statues are not. I've removed the image and replaced it with a plain one of an actor from the game. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 09:58, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The difference isn't between statues and costumes, but between photos whose purpose is to show the copyrighted work (as most photos of statues are) and between photos whose purpose is to depict cosplayers (as "depicting a copyrighted work" and "depicting a thing that happens to have some copyrighted aspects which cannot be avoided" are not legally the same thing in some places of the world). Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 11:00, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from theJoebro64 edit

This article really makes you feel like Spider-Man. Jokes aside, I reviewed this at GAN and see no errors now, so I support. JOEBRO64 19:42, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by David Fuchs edit

Forthcoming. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:31, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • General:
    • Article seems to meet comprehensiveness and breadth criterion, no serious instability.
  • Prose
    • discussions about the potential new project were not documented—this seems like a construction to avoid saying "off-the-record" as in the source, but you should really just say off the record or informal, because "not documented" doesn't really clarify what was actually going on (I highly doubt there was no paper trail, etc.)
    • narrowly beating another PS4 exclusive God of War's 3.1 million sold in May 2018—the fact that it was also a PS4 exclusive seems already suggested by the rest of the sentence, I'd cut this to simplify the sentence.
    • If you're going to refer to reviewers by their publication rather than their names (which is totally fine), you should change the pronouns to gender-neutral ones. EGM isn't a "he".
    • In general I think the reception section could do with a tightening. There are a lot of quotes, and while I don't think any rise to the level of problematic from a copyright perspective they do run into issues from a readability standpoint. Fluff like descriptors as "all top-notch stuff", "an entertaining romp", etc—things that feel like they'd be highlighted on a GOTY poster or box—should probably be cut and summarized.
      • The overuse of quotes I feel like is similarly a problem in the development section.
    • The plot section is current 770ish words (not including characters and setting), and should be cut down.
  • References:
    • What makes Comicbook.com a high-quality, reliable source?
    • The citations are a bit inconsistently formatted with regards to work/publisher. Shacknews should be italicized, for example, if other publications are being italicized.
    • Spot-checked statements attributed to current refs 1, 6, 9, 17, 18, 19, 34, 42, 45, 55, 58, 68, 87, 92, 100, 105, 112, and 153.
      • Ref 9 has the wrong URL (archive is fine.)
      • Ref 9 does not adequately cite Many of these offer special abilities that can aid in combat, such as increasing Focus gain, reducing gravity, enhancing stealth, making the player invulnerable, and unleashing an electromagnetic pulse to disable enemy weapons.
      • Ref 34 doesn't really say who has disappeared during a long holiday as in the text; his "vacation" is a pretext, he didn't disappear while on a vacation.
      • 105 doesn't adequately cite Spider-Man remained the top-selling video game for three consecutive weeks until it was replaced by the multiplatform title FIFA 19. (mentions three weeks, not that it was replaced by FIFA.)

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 15:02, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok think I've addressed most things here. I'm still working on the plot, finding it difficult to cull it while it still makes sense. I tried not to use off-the-record as I didn't know if it would count as a colloquialism or not but I've added it in now. Comicbook.com seems reliable IMO, the about page ties it to a company name and second website, the owner is apparently behind quite a few companies so it's not just a fan blog, and they have "some" tie to Gamespot though I can't figure out what it is. There probably was critical commentary on the music in reviews but I don't tend to include that so I probably glossed over it, I am of the belief that kind of stuff belongs in an article of its own if the detail is there. The music file is to compliment the discussion next to instead since all of the music in game is based off that one original theme, meaning that 10 seconds can convey a lot about what is being discussed there. Again, IMO. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:42, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That it can convey a lot is great, but that's not really solving the issue of NFCC#8, where you have to argue that it's a major detriment to the article subject as a whole with not including it. Given that there's no major critical commentary about it that implies the music is not a major component of the subject that needs non-free mmedia. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 19:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, the sound file is gone. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 19:17, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I've trimmed the plot to 704 words, probably a few less if I hyphenate Mary Jane or switch it to MJ but I think it's as short as I can make it while still including the necessary plot points. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 21:30, 25 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging David Fuchs in case he hasn't seen a response has been made. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 11:43, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi David Fuchs, is there something I haven't addressed? Thought I hit everything. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:13, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Having looked into it further, I don't think Comicbook.com meets the high quality threshold required of reliable sources; they don't have a clear editorial policy or masthead/editorial system. Merely being own by a big company or affiliated with another reliable source doesn't convey reliability. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 21:39, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
David Fuchs, I've removed the two last two comicbook.com sources as the associated info. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:18, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I've struck the last remaining issue; I will do another lookover before supporting. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 16:28, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Homeostasis07 edit

I've never actually played this game myself (I've not played a new game since The Evil Within back in 2014)... but over this past summer I've sat in my brother's living room long enough to watch my 11-year-old nephew play a decent chunk of it (his house is right next to my job, so I basically spent at least 40 minutes every Monday-Friday watching my nephew play this on my lunch-break). So I hopefully have a fairly decent grasp of its mechanics/story. I hope to be able to provide something substantive to this review, although it seems like a pretty damn substantive article already. Expect something here within 24 hours/48 hours maximum. ;) Homeostasis07 (talk · contribs) 00:38, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the delay, Darkwarriorblake: I took the liberty of correcting a couple of typos I found on the article, but I noticed these edits more than likely interacted with you trying to fix the issues David Fuchs raised above. I apologize if my edits resulted in any edit conflicts.
As I said, I found a couple of typos in the entire article, which I've taken the liberty of fixing myself. Otherwise, I thought the prose was brilliantly written. You've done a fantastic job of making the article as easy to follow as possible, even for someone like me, who generally can't stand most of the superhero stuff we've been subjected to these past 15 years. There was no point in the prose where I thought any particular sentence needed either expanding on or subtracting from. You did a damn fine job of creating a great balance between technical aspects versus things the casual reader would understand. So I'm happy to support this article for promotion on 1a, b, c, d and e. I don't really know what's going on with the formatting of the Bibliography section, but I assume it has something to do with this, which shouldn't impact on the promotion of this particular article. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:58, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much Homeostasis, and yes, people are doing weird things with the reference templates at the minute. It seems to be fixed now. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 07:59, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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