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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Song Dynasty

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 18:13, 25 August 2007.

Song Dynasty edit

previous FAC

The Song Dynasty (960-1279 AD) era of China; this article was raised to GA status a while back, and although it failed its FAC review, after many improvements to the article I am renominating it for FA status. The main issue with the last review was copyright issues for a few of the article's images, which have since been solved with those images replaced with stable GNU licensed and public domain images from Commons. It is well sourced, stable (no edit-warring), has no startling POV statements, and is now well-written with many recent copyedits. There are a total of six related sub-articles created for this main article, including History, Culture, Society, Economy, Technology, and Architecture, all of which are summarized within the main article. Due to so many branch articles with separate info aiding the main Song Dynasty article, this article is not excessively long, only 46 KB.--PericlesofAthens 15:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

MOS concerns, addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:20, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • MOS fixes needed, there is incorrect use dashes on date ranges throughout, solo years are overlinked (see WP:MOSNUM), and text is scrunched between images and an infobox. Templates are placed incorrectly at the bottom of sections (see WP:LAYOUT). Please remove the scrollref box that obscures references; it was AfD'd for a reason (it doesn't print, and doesn't mirror). Please remove the self references to GA and FA from See also, and articles included in the text shouldn't also be linked in See also (see WP:LAYOUT). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! You're quick! Lol. Nice to see you around again, Sandy, it's been a while. Sure thing, I'll fix all this stuff, didn't know there were problems with any of the things you've listed, but I will fix them now.--PericlesofAthens 17:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Sandy, I am happy to say that I believe I've now fixed all of the MOS issues you have raised.--PericlesofAthens 19:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why are solo years linked? Also, see WP:MOS#Quotations, the author of a quote of a sentence or more must be attributed in the text, not the footnote. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, which solo years do you see linked? By solo years do you mean people's birth and death dates? I am confused.--PericlesofAthens 20:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here are examples—does the reader benefit from the year links?
  • During the Northern Song (Chinese: 北宋, 960–1127), the Song capital was in the northern city of Kaifeng and the dynasty controlled most of inner China. The Southern Song (Chinese: 南宋, 1127–1279) refers to the period after the Song lost control of northern China to the Jin Dynasty.
  • The Mongols, led by Genghis Khan (r. 1206–1227 AD) initially invaded the Jin Dynasty ...
  • Under the continuing leadership of Ögedei Khan (1229–1241 AD), both the Jin Dynasty and Western Xia Dynasty ...
  • All of the solo years in the Song Dynasty infobox are linked.
Also, why is AD mentioned throughout? Isn't it OK just to mention it once? There is still text between the History of China infobox on the right and images on the left.
Also, refer to WP:MOSLINK and WP:CONTEXT, common terms known to most English speakers need not be linked, and detract from the high value links, example:
Since you brought it up, I attributed the one quote in the article to the historians Ebrey, Walthall, and Palais in the text.--PericlesofAthens 20:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As you have requested, I have delinked all years that have no relevant additional information associated with this article. I have also deleted AD throughout the article except for its first mentioning in the dates of the first lead paragraph. In the sentence you have shown above I have also delinked puppeteers, acrobats, prostitutes, restaurants, and banquets, but kept the others with disambiguation to other articles with relevant info on China, such as Chinese folklore for storytellers and Music of China of singers and musicians. I hope all of this is sufficient in addressing those claims mentioned.--PericlesofAthens 02:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
One more thing though, about the "scrunching" of text with the infobox, is there some sort of wikipedia standard that says I should not "scrunch" with pics and an infobox, or is this a personal preference of yours? In any case I have remedied the situation by moving the infobox up a bit and one of the pics down to the last paragraph of the Northern Song sub-section.--PericlesofAthens 02:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:MOS#Images; text is still scrunched between images and infobox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I want to make it absolutely clear that I did not move that picture back to the top where it was scrunching the text, that was an edit by another wiki editor. I have moved it back down so that the text is not scrunched, and provided my rationale in the edit.--PericlesofAthens 20:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And as for the infobox years still being linked, I tried delinking them all, but the links won't go away! Your guess is probably as good as mine in understanding why the infobox is fussy like that.--PericlesofAthens 02:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like someone fixed the infobox years and delinked them. Good looking out, people.--PericlesofAthens 12:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In addressing another one of your claims, Sandy, I have made many general improvements to the article in rewording some sentences and delinking many words that are not high value or informative links for this article. I hope you find the new improvements sufficient.--PericlesofAthens 14:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I think the article is extremely good and beautifully laid out. I would suggest that under "Society, culture, economy, and technology you vary more the beginning of subsections and not start so many in a row with "The Song Dynasty..." --Mattisse 19:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You know what, Matisse? I think I'll see what I can do with that, I'm glad you brought that up, otherwise I would not have even noticed the repetition.--PericlesofAthens 21:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just updated the society sub-section with info on law and order, justice and early forensic science in the Song period.--PericlesofAthens 21:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- excellent in coverage and sourcing, elegant in writing. Chensiyuan 13:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Excellent prose, proper citations, and extremely FA-worthy. --Hemlock Martinis 00:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Миборовский, I have addressed your concern by adding a big-ole whopping paragraph in the Society section on the Song military, and adding a new picture to aid the new text. I hope Mikey likes it. Lol. :) --Pericles of AthensTalk 14:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe it's just me but I don't see the military as part of 'society', but rather I think it should have its own section on the main Song Dynasty page. It's certainly important enough to warrant its own section and subpage. You already have a lot of information scattered around various sections of the article, but I just think it would be better together. -- Миборовский 16:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the reason why it is under the "Society" section is because all of the information about the military is found in the Society of the Song Dynasty article, which is summarized here in the "Society" section for the main Song Dynasty article. I am just following wiki standards of having a main article that is summarized in a section of another article. In summarizing the military info in this article section, it allows the reader to know which main article to look at if they want to know more about a given topic, such as looking in Society of the Song Dynasty for more information on the Song military. For what I am supporting, see Wikipedia:Guide to layout, Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles, Wikipedia:Summary style. Plus, the information on the military represents only one paragraph in this article here (albeit a large one), which hardly warrants an entire section (let alone the fact that all the military information is already placed in a listed sub-article). The architecture section at least has two large paragraphs.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind! Wiki member Mattisse and I have fixed the problem by creating new sub-headings and a new over-heading. The military now has its own sub-section under society, not culture, which makes no sense.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, fair enough. -- Миборовский 19:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - really astounding work! You are approaching a featured topic around the Song Dynasty. You have my offer to help with the architecture article next week when a couple books that I ordered arrive. D. Recorder 01:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments Support - nice. I'm postiing a couple of text-massage opportunities....I think the suggestions below are insufficient to be deal-breakers, but I think they are worth looking at and thinking about). The text is more polished than Augustus. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd think about a semicolon between .. 960–1279 AD. It succeeded... these 2 sentences as the first is rather short. I just love semicolons and they cheer me up. I think this is a great place for one.
Between the 10th and 11th centuries, the population of China doubled in size. - swap clauses to eliminate comma
Although weakened, the Song economy was not in ruins as the Southern Song contained 60 percent of China's population and a majority of the most productive agricultural land - change "Southern Song" to "the South" to reduce repetition (or is this introducing ambiguity?)
The Southern Song Dynasty built considerable naval strength.. - try "The Southern Song Dynasty considerably bolstered naval strength" (?)
Awesome! I'm glad you like the article; as for Augustus, it looks much better after the recent edits.--Pericles of AthensTalk 03:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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