Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Samuel Mulledy/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 22 January 2020 [1].

Samuel Mulledy

Nominator(s): Ergo Sum 03:06, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Catholic priest who had a less-than-stellar track record as a Jesuit. He became the president of Georgetown University, but was relieved after just a few months and then was booted from the Jesuit order. He drifted around and then was re-admitted on his death bed. Ergo Sum 03:06, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Coffeeandcrumbs

I am not sure if I have the time for a full review but I do want to offer what I can:

@Coffeeandcrumbs: I appreciate whatever comments you can provide. If you're able to do a review of the whole article, that'd be great. Ergo Sum 22:57, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you have the strong enough sourcing to use the word "severe" in the lead or the body. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 02:48, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I've removed the word severe. Ergo Sum 22:57, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
there is inconsistent use of "President of Georgetown" and "president of Georgetown". Take a look at MOS:JOBTITLES. If ignoring JOBTITLES, find your own consistent rule.
- I've made the capitalization consistent. Ergo Sum 17:37, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This source says that he received a class ("Silver") medal in mathematics as well as rhethoric which you have mentioned. He also received a honorable mention ("The Premium") in French.
- Added. Thanks for doing a bit of research. Ergo Sum 17:43, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Ergo Sum: Mathematics? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 04:09, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Coffeeandcrumbs: Added. Ergo Sum 05:45, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This source on Project Muse says that he was one of three priests at the dedication mass of St. Peter's Church (Richmond, Virginia) on May 25, 1834. It says Mulledy and Samuel Eccleston gave sermons on the occassion. I can email you the pages if you don't have access.
- Actually, turns out the source confused the two brothers. Checking the source the author cites (column 5), it was Thomas (then president) that was at the dedication. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 09:51, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This source says that he was appointed president when Ryder was called to Rome. Apparently, Ryder was accused of having an affair. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 09:30, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Added that detail. Ergo Sum 17:53, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Upon his return to the United States, he was named president of Georgetown" – he returned from Rome in 1941 and was not appointed president until 1945. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 05:58, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I've clarified the timeline. Ergo Sum 06:22, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Coffeeandcrumbs: Do you anticipate having any forthcoming comments? Ergo Sum 15:56, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Nope. I am good. Support. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 16:47, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

An interesting read:

" but sought to be relieved of the position after just several months." I might conclude (after "position") "after only a few months". Sounds better to me anyway.
- I like that phrasing too. Ergo Sum 23:02, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I might say at first mention in the body how many years older Thomas was.
- Done. Ergo Sum 23:05, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Near his death, Quarter sent a letter to the vicar general for the Archdiocese of New York " I might say "Shortly before" rather than "Near".
- Done. Ergo Sum 23:06, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"I would capitalize "day" in "Christmas day" Even my autocorrect said to!
- Done. Ergo Sum 23:06, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sources. Should the Gramatowski title be in title case like the others?

I'm not following. The title is formatted according to {{Cite book}}. Ergo Sum 23:07, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The capitalization.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:51, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've just capitalized it the way the source capitalizes it. I think if I were to change it, that would be (minor) modification of the original. Ergo Sum 00:00, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Given the briefness of the section of president of Georgetown College, it might be worth mentioning (having looked at the source) that while he was president the college attended Polk's inauguration and marched in the procession to honor Andrew Jackson on his death. By the dates, those happened during his tenure.
- I left those out because I didn't think they were too relevant, but I've added a mention of them. Ergo Sum 23:17, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would think that you could mine Dooley for a few more details, again, given that the article is relatively brief. Father Quarter's opinion of his assistant sounds worth repeating. And it sounds like he overcame his alcoholism there, and possibly details of his funeral.
- I've scavenged for a few more details from Dooley and incorporated them. Ergo Sum 23:49, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for now.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:53, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Wehwalt: Thank you for your comments. I believe I've responded to each. Ergo Sum 23:49, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support--Wehwalt (talk) 00:23, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Epicgenius

(I must note that I am planning to claim WikiCup points for these comments.) On first read, this seems to be a decent article, but short. I will leave more detailed comments later. epicgenius (talk) 18:41, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

who was a prominent 19th-century Jesuit in the United States and who was also president of Georgetown. - I think you can eliminate both instances of "who was". This makes the sentence unnecessarily wordy.
- I've removed the second instance. I think it's necessary to keep the first, because otherwise, the sentence could be read as meaning Samuel was the prominent Jesuit. Ergo Sum 20:26, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Sounds good. epicgenius (talk) 21:04, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
proved to be a distinguished student - I feel that this may be slightly vague. Did he have good grades?
- I find no specific grades. But several sources say he was a very good student, which is why he was sent to Rome. Ergo Sum 20:26, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Then I suggest you can say "was a distinguished student". "Proved to be" is a vague wording, in my view. epicgenius (talk) 21:04, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
He sought to be relieved of the position after only a few months. - Do you know why he decided to quit? I also find the phrase "sought to" slightly offputting. You can probably say, simply, that he quit.
- I mean, technically, he wasn't allowed to quit; he had to get permission from the Jesuit superior. That's why I phrase it that way. I cannot find a reason why he quit, but I imagine it was probably related to early alcoholism. Ergo Sum 20:27, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mulledy then became an alcoholic, and was expelled from the Society of Jesus in 1850 - probably an unnecessary comma.
- Removed. Ergo Sum 20:28, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Samuel A. Mulledy[2] was born on March 27, 1811, - Not a problem in itself. Is the reference there to support his full name being "Samuel A. Mulledy"?
- Yes. Do you think this is necessary? Ergo Sum 20:28, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - That's fine. Optionally I think there can be a footnote saying that "A" is part of his full name, not an initial. epicgenius (talk) 21:04, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
His brother, Thomas F. Mulledy, was 17 years older than him, - He only had one sibling?
- I cannot tell from the sources. They only mention Thomas, but do not definitively say he had only one. Ergo Sum 20:29, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More to come later. epicgenius (talk) 18:45, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

some of his tuition he paid in kind, in the form of two horses - I think this can be rephrased because it is awkward. E.g. "He paid some of his tuition in kind,"... Are the horses the only payment he made in kind?
- I've split it up into two sentences. It seems that the horses was it. Ergo Sum 22:01, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
He also studied in Nice in 1840, which fell within the Jesuit province of Turin. - Should "in 1840" be at the beginning of the sentence?
- Either way is grammatically correct, but I've rephrased it. Ergo Sum 22:03, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Generally you can mention Mulledy's name more often (first or last, either way), rather than beginning sentences with "He". E.g. He then returned from Europe can be replaced with "Mulledy then returned"...
- Added a few more Mulledys. Ergo Sum 22:04, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of commas, Mulledy then returned from Europe, and was appointed on November 1, 1841 doesn't need a comma, either.
- Done. Ergo Sum 22:05, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
He was young for a holder of the position - Out of interest, any younger people held this position?
- I'm not sure; that would require going through the 45 different presidents and seeing what age they were when they were appointed. I wouldn't really be sure how to cite that either. Ergo Sum 22:07, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - That's fine. epicgenius (talk) 22:22, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
From 1847 to 1848, he was a professor dogmatic theology at Georgetown, and taught rhetoric thereafter
1. it's missing a word - "professor of dogmatic theology"
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 22:08, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
1. this phrasing may make it confusing with regards to when/where he taught rhetoric. Would that be after 1848 at Georgetown? If so you may want to say something like: "At Georgetown, he was a professor of dogmatic theology from 1847 to 1848, and taught rhetoric thereafter".
- Rephrased. Ergo Sum 22:08, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
He then was assigned to the Church of Sts. Peter and Paul in South Boston and St. Mary's Church in Yonkers, New York, in 1859 and 1860 - Respectively or concurrently?
- Respectively. Fixed. Ergo Sum 22:10, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mulledy was well liked by the congregation there, "well-liked" is an adverbial form so it can be hyphenated.
- Done. Ergo Sum 22:12, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
asthma, as well as an enlarged aorta in 1865 - His preexisting asthma, or was he diagnosed with that and the enlarged aorta in 1865?
- The source doesn't distinguish, but my understanding of asthma is that it generally doesn't arise later in life. Ergo Sum 22:14, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Archbishop John McCloskey decided to transfer administration of the parish to the Jesuits,[35] which was done at Mulledy's request - you probably don't need the phrase "which was done".
- Done. Ergo Sum 22:14, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These are the rest of my comments for now. Otherwise I don't see any obstacle to this page becoming yet another priest-related FA. epicgenius (talk) 21:04, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Epicgenius: Thank you for your comments. I believe I've addressed them all. Ergo Sum 22:15, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I don't really see any other issues. epicgenius (talk) 22:22, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Cas Liber

Support - have read this through. It is a small article, but I can't see any prose issues itching to be corrected, nor (judging by this page) fixable gaps in narrative. hence I am tentatively supporting it but am a neophyte in the area. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:36, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Ref #5 – You meant page 107
- Done. Ergo Sum 19:40, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #6 – This Irish Times adds nothing crucial and does not even mention Samuel. What you need is a source for his father being "a Catholic" which can be found in Ref #4, Maxwell & Swisher 1897, p. 719.
- Done. Ergo Sum 19:40, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #8 does not mention Samuel. Better to use {{sfn|Shea|1891|pp=153, 162}}
- Done. Ergo Sum 19:43, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #20 does not mention "Pontifical Gregorian University"
- I'm pretty sure that the Roman College had ceased to actually be the Roman College in the 16th century, when the Gregorian University was created, but continued to be colloquially referred to as that. However, after doing a bit of research, I've turned up lots of ambiguity and little definitiveness, so I have removed reference to the Gregoriana. Ergo Sum 19:52, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #21 says that Thomas was in residence in Nice. No mention of Samuel on page 11. Is this an error in the document? Or maybe Thomas was sent to Nice for punishment for the whole slaves thing. In Thomas Mulledy, you don't say much about the period between his two tenures as president.

After a deeper look, I am almost certain this is about Thomas and you don't have any sources for Samuel going to Nice. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:42, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, that was my reading the Latin source too quickly. I've corrected the error. Ergo Sum 19:58, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will be back to finish up later. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 14:24, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Coffeeandcrumbs: Thank you for this thorough source review. It's much appreciated. Ergo Sum 19:58, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"subsequently taught rhetoric there" – needs page 47 of Dooley
- Done. Ergo Sum 21:57, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for me. You already have my support. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:45, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Ergo Sum 21:58, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator notes

Requesting a source and image review. --Laser brain (talk) 13:02, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhat of a short article. Image-wise it seems like both use and license are OK here. Only one of them has ALT text. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:26, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Both images have alt text. Ergo Sum 15:33, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Laser brain: would it be acceptable for me to do a source review as well. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 10:26, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Coffeeandcrumbs: Absolutely. --Laser brain (talk) 14:39, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. --Laser brain (talk) 12:42, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.