Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Osbert Lancaster/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 10:56, 12 March 2018 [1].

Osbert Lancaster

edit
Nominator(s): Tim riley talk 09:03, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Osbert Lancaster had three careers at once: cartoonist, stage designer and architectural historian and polemicist. I've expanded his article and, I hope, covered all three aspects appropriately. I have had the benefit of expert guidance here and here on the use of unfree images showing the three areas of his work, and have had a peer review from colleagues including some of Wikipedia's leading producers of featured articles. Further comments on text and images will be most welcome. Lancaster was a very English phenomenon, but I hope readers from other countries will find him interesting. Tim riley talk 09:03, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Lingzhi

edit
  • what is "prowenochess"?
    • A typo, now corrected.
  • are you averse to using {{sfn}}? It makes everything so much easier, esp. including providing a link between notes and references, and the ability to cross-check them... Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 11:22, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I find sfn hideously difficult, ugly and inflexible. I have used it when collaborating with editors who prefer it, and follow it as best I can when adding to an article that uses it, but in none of the FAs for which I have been flying solo have I used it, and hope never to have to. Tim riley talk 11:48, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As I said:

  1. Now I have to go through a process of copy/pasting your refernces onto a text file, massaging them in various ways, copy/pasting from there to a word doc, sorting, and then manually eyeballing each and every one, one by one, to compare them with your sources. That would be almost OK if I find no errors, but for many editors I find many very egregious errors. In that latter case, it is difficult for me to consider their actions as anything other than simply selfish.
  2. Moreover, as I also said, sfn creates a clickable link between references and sources – a service to the reader...

I'll start copy/pasting now. I'll check back in a while. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 12:32, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This has never been raised as a problem by any reviewer in any of the 30+ FACs I've taken articles to. Perhaps you might leave reviews of non sfn articles to reviewers who do not object to them as you do. Tim riley talk 12:58, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done checking. I do not object about yours; yours are perfect. I am unhappy (as I said) when people use "I hate templates" as an excuse to leave large numbers of egregious errors on the page in hopes that either a) no one will see them, b) someone else will see them and clean them up, or c) someone else will at least save them the trouble of finding all the errors. I humbly suggest that you might chew your pencil tip in frustration if you had to check that kind... I don't think I could point out examples, as that would of course fluster the editors. But there are some repeat offenders. No problems in formatting or reliability here. Thanks! Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 13:27, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's a relief, anyway. Thank you for the check. Tim riley talk 14:02, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. With the addition of the extra information into the reputation section, this now rounds out the only area I thought lacking at the PR. This is an excellent article, fully within the FA criteria and a pleasure to read. - SchroCat (talk) 13:37, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, SchroCat. Input at PR and here much appreciated. Tim riley talk 14:02, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm most grateful to both Ceoil and Wehwalt for excellent input at PR and for support here. Tim riley talk 19:46, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, with a few uncontentious observations:
Early years
  • "The headmaster, Stanley Harris, was a celebrated amateur footballer and cricketer..." Celebrated footballer, perhaps, but distinctly modest as a cricketer. Perhaps amend to "...celebrated amateur footballer and occasional first-class cricketer"?
  • Odd to see Thackeray described as an "artist". Perhaps he illustrated his own books, but so for example did Evelyn Waugh, and you wouldn't really include him in a list of artists.
  • (Aside): gaining a fourth-class degree after four years' study doesn't suggest he made much of a "belated effort"!
    • Having rashly switched from History to English, he found, like many before and after him, that the compulsory Anglo-Saxon is frightfully hard going. He was astonished to get a degree at all after a disastrous viva in which the only words he could translate were "Jesus Christ", and the fierce examineress thought he was letting loose an expletive. Tim riley talk 15:26, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
1930s
  • "...the diverse gifts of contemporary artists from Edward Burra to Giorgio de Chirico, Edward Wadsworth and Paul Nash." Do the last three represent collectively the other end of the range from Burra? Or is the intended sense "the diverse gifts of contemporary artists such as..." etc?
  • What was the nature of the "centrepiece of the Festival Gardens" that Lancaster and Piper designed?
    • Boston desctibes it as "a 250-yard succession of pavilions, arcades, towers, pagodas, terraces, gardens, lakes and fountains, in styles that included Brighton Regency, Gothic and Chinese". I don't think this need go in the main text, but I could put it in a footnote if you think it would be a good idea. Tim riley talk 15:26, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Later: the more I looked at this the more I thought a footnote a good idea, and I have added one, consisting of the above quote from Boston. Tim riley talk 16:07, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sentence beginning "He illustrated or designed covers..." is in my view rather too long and over-complicated through punctuation. It could I am sure be stated more elegantly.
Later years
  • I'm not sure why you specifically mention the "Labour government" in relation to plans demolish the front of the Tate Gallery. A couple of sentences earlier you mention the actual demolition of the Euston Arch without naming the incumbent government.
    • I mention the Tories in the sentence immediately following, as well as later referring to OL's objection to their being in hock to developers: I wanted to make it clear that he opposed both the main parties in an even-handed way. Tim riley talk 15:26, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Stage design
  • Nitpick: do we include the "Sir" when we refer to such as Geraint Evans (and, see below, Roy Strong)
    • The MoS (rightly, I think) enjoins us to be careful to give people the titles they actually held at the time in question. The NPG show was commissioned by Mr Strong; the quoted comments were made by Sir Roy (and Sir Geraint). Tim riley talk 15:26, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Reputation

That's all. The article has the grace and style that we expect from the Riley stable, and is thoroughly deserving of elevation. Brianboulton (talk) 22:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, BB, not only for your contribution at PR and here, but for putting the idea of overhauling Osbert's article in my head in the first place. I am only sorry that it couldn't have been a joint effort as originally planned. I hope another opportunity will arise in due course. – Tim riley talk 15:26, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gerda Thank you for making his interesting three-fold career better known! I missed the peer review, and not much seems left. Consider and perhaps ignore some minor points.

Lead

  • "... as important works of reference on the subject." - I guess the subject means architecture in general, wouldn't hurt to repeat, after many details in between.
I am reluctant to repeat "architecture" in a single sentence. Tim riley talk 17:24, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Early years

  • Most of the people are given (at least first) in their relationship to him, but then we come to Clare Lancaster, having to look up again and conclude that it is his mother, now with her married name, followed by "her husband". I suggest to say "his mother, his father" again for clarity.
Done. Tim riley talk 17:24, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd have a comma after "Lincoln College, Oxford" but perhaps English don't need one.
Not needed here. Tim riley talk 17:24, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Looking again, though a comma is not needed it does no harm and I have added one. Tim riley talk 20:14, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

1930s

  • After he studied history in Oxford, "art" comes a bit as a surprise.
  • I made a red link for Polunin which will not stay red for long.

A pleasure to read, thank you. Meeting the quote "the most polite and unsplenetic of cartoonists, he was never a crusader, remaining always a witty, civilized critic with a profound understanding of the vagaries of human nature" made my day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Changes made where appropriate in response to above suggestions. Thanks. Tim riley talk 17:24, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from KJP1

edit

First off, apologies for missing the Peer review. It's a fine portrait of the man and his works and, having read it through twice, I'm quite certain it meets the FA criteria. Some minor suggestions below, which can be considered and acted upon or rejected as appropriate, but nothing that stands in the way of my Supporting.

Lead
  • "his books have continued to be regarded as important works of reference on the subject" - more simply, "his books remain important works of reference in the field of architectural studies." I appreciate that causes you to use "architectural" twice in the same sentence (see above), so you may just prefer to leave it alone!
  • "Cartoon and Coronets: The Genius of Osbert Lancaster" - I think the title is "Cartoons and Coronets: The Genius of Osbert Lancaster", as you have it later. And should it be italicised, as a title?
Life and career - Early years
  • "a few blocks away were the deprived and dangerous Notting Dale and the Portobello Road" - "a few blocks away were the deprived and dangerous areas of Notting Dale and the Portobello Road..." Sounds like your neck of the woods!
  • "There, as at Charterhouse, he found two camps in which a vociferous minority of students chose to group themselves" - I got a tad confused here. We've "two camps" into which a "single (?) minority" of vociferous students chose to group themselves? Not sure what to suggest, will ponder as I go.
  • "most importantly John Betjeman, who became a close friend and lifelong influence" - you've already identified him as a friend, early in the sentence. Close "companion"?
    • Redrawn
Life and career - Second World War
  • "His duties included daily news briefings of other public servants and the British press" - are we missing something? "His duties included producing daily news briefings for other public servants and the British press".
  • "drawing caricatures for leaflets in German, Dutch and French for aerial drops" - clear to me, but to a wider audience? Perhaps, "drawing caricatures for leaflets in German, Dutch and French for distribution in Occupied Europe"?
    • Redrawn.
  • "Following an initiative by Macmillan, backed by Winston Churchill, a new government took office in Athens" - the point could be debated, but I wonder whether this rather downplays Churchill's role? Colville records WSC's intention "of flying to Athens to settle the matter" (Fringes of Power, p=537) and Gilbert devotes a whole chapter, (Road to Victory: Christmas 1944: Athens Amid Gunfire, pp=1117-1136), to WSC's personal involvement and presence. Personally, I'd attribute it to WSC, supported by Macmillan, e.g. "Following a personal intervention by Winston Churchill in support of an initiative by Macmillan, a new government took office..."
    • Boston is not wrong when he says as a preliminary to his chapter about Lancaster's time in Athens that as far as this bit of European history is concerned "it is rare to find two experts who agree on the facts, let alone the interpretation." I have Colville’s two volumes, but with all respect to him he was parti pris, and I rely more on Alistair Horne, a historian whom I greatly admire. According to him, Churchill took some talking round to get him to back Macmillan's initiative (which may actually have been Leeper's idea originally, but I don't propose to pursue that). WSC was at first all against having Archbishop Damaskinos as Regent. I've nevertheless tweaked the sentence a bit. Tim riley talk 16:16, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Life and career - Later years: 1960–1986
  • "before joining his wife for a midday dry martini and finally dressing and going to one of his clubs for lunch" - did he really take a cocktail in his pyjamas or did he dress first?
  • "They played a major role in defeating the Labour government's plans to demolish the front of the Tate Gallery" - wasn't the intention to remove the portico, rather than the whole front?
  • "In 1978 Lancaster suffered the first of a long series of strokes, and he began a slow decline in his health" - perhaps, "In 1978 Lancaster suffered the first of a series of strokes, and his health began to decline".
Works - Architectural history and comment
  • "The twisted columns in the "Baroque" section are drawn from no real baroque building, but are the artist's distillation of the many examples he has seen and sketched" - I think I know what you mean, but in a sense they are drawn from real examples, Solomonic column, but exaggerated. Perhaps; "The twisted columns in the "Baroque" section are not drawn directly from actual baroque buildings, but are the artist's distillation of the many examples he has seen and sketched"?
Works - Cartoons
  • "Canon Fontwater, a personification of the Church Militant" - I know you're not a great fan, but I think you need a bluelink here for clarity.
Character and views
  • "But despite what he described as his strong traditionalist feelings he was a floating voter:" - perhaps a comma, or two, he suggested hesitantly? "But despite what he described as his strong traditionalist feelings, he was a floating voter:".
Legacy, honours and reputation - Exhibitions
  • "an exhibition titled "Cartoons and Coronets: The Genius of Osbert Lancaster" - should the title be italicised, see Lead above?
    • Indeed. Something I'll try to remember if the question comes up elsewhere, though using itals is logical enough when one thinks about it. If the book of the same title is italicised it would be particularly odd if the show were not. Tim riley talk 16:16, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's my lot. Thoroughly enjoyable, for which many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 11:11, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these. I shall enjoy working through them and reporting back here. Tim riley talk 12:41, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done as detailed above. Thank you, KJP1, for these points, and for supporting. Tim riley talk 16:16, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

I see I have neglected to thank Nikkimaria for the review and help, and I hasten to remedy that dereliction. Very grateful, as always. Tim riley talk 12:48, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

edit
  • Worth mentioning knighthood in 1975 in lead?
  • "Lancaster agreed with Beerbohm's remark, "My delight in having been at Charterhouse was far greater than had been my delight in being there"". This confused me at first. I thought it was a quote from Lancaster and looked for the previous comment he was agreeing with.
  • "Following an initiative by Macmillan and the personal intervention of Winston Churchill, a new government took office in Athens acceptable to all sides, and peace was restored in January 1945." I am not an expert, but I am pretty sure "acceptable to all sides" is wrong. The article on the Greek Civil War presents it as a defeat for the left which was part of the run up to the outbreak of the civil war in 1946. It also sounds odd to quote a description of his 1947 book as "an unflinching but lyrical account of the conditions of post-war Greece" without mentioning that by that time Greece was in the middle of the biggest war between Communists and anti-Communists in Europe of the post-war period.
    • As I have said above, my main source comments that no two historians agree on the facts of this period of Greek history, let alone the interpretation. I have based my account on OL's biographer, Richard Boston, with further recourse for key details to Alistair Horne's book on the period. I take the point about the quote on the 1947 book, and will tweak. Tim riley talk 16:54, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He and his friend John Piper were commissioned to design the centrepiece of the Festival Gardens on the south bank of the Thames." This is a bit vague. I would move the note to the main text.
    • The review process is a real blessing: I only put the note in because another reviewer asked for details, but the more I reread my own prose the more I agree with you that it should be in the main text. I'll hoik it out of the notes and into the text. Tim riley talk 16:54, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • No change needed but I find it interesting that I have always understood Pevsner and Betjeman to be the pioneers of architectural preservation. It no doubt reflects my ignorance that I have never heard of Lancaster in that regard until now.
  • A fine article but I doubt whether your sources are reliable on Greece in the late 1940s. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:46, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:59, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you again! Tim riley talk 21:46, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Smerus

edit

Very nice article, I'm very happy to support its progress to FA. Sorry I didn't have time to look at it before.One quibble:

"Knox singles out as Lancaster's most lasting contribution to the magazine a series of illustrated satires on planning and architecture, under the title Progress at Pelvis Bay. The collected articles were turned into a book, under the same title, published in 1936. It satirised greedy and philistine property development in a typical seaside resort."

Two 'satire's in three sentences is perhaps also over-intensive development. Besides, PPB is more than just a satire, it is (imo) a brilliant and scathing work of architectural and social history. Lancaster refers to the book in his preface as 'a detailed account of a splendid metamorphosis. It traces with loving enthusiasm the development of a flourishing seaside resort from the original poverty-stricken fishing village to the present magnificent marine metropolis...' It's not only about greed - it's about the decay of taste and the invasion of the British landscape by motorcars and bypasses....--Smerus (talk) 20:08, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wish I could quote the entire preceding para. OL's subversive adoption of the tone of a well-meaning local cheerleader is wonderfully funny in a gruesome way. I'll tweak my own prose, meanwhile. And thank you, Smerus, for comment and support. Tim riley talk 20:29, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Johnbod

edit
  • Support nothing much to say about this very enjoyable and thorough article. The notes are entertaining and I wonder if some might not be moved up into the text? That's all. Johnbod (talk) 16:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for your support. I admit I'm tempted to move some of the gossipy notes into the main text, and will examine my conscience. Tim riley talk 19:24, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Encouraged by you and by the reviewer below, I have moved one note up into the text, and am pondering whether to go further. Tim riley talk 14:47, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be slow to move anymore up. As the page stands, they are all gathered together in an easily accessible section for the interested. I think they have more impact as stands, without being tonally jarring within the main text. Ceoil (talk) 15:34, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Remark by SN54129

edit

@Tim riley: That's interesting what you say above re. his poor academic career; from what you say, It's presumably sourced, so perhaps add the vignette/s about changing degrees or even the harsh examiner?

    • ...or even examineress!
  • On edit: I see the midstream equestrian transfer is mentioned in the notes; agree with the rever reviewer advice about moving this to the body. Likewise, perhaps, if the Anglo-Saxon attitudes are deemed a little flighty for the body, they would suit a note? (Re. gossipyness!)

Couple of questions; Pont Street Dutch is linked in the lede-any reason Stockbrokers' Tudor isn't? Also, "a few blocks from..." sounds curiously transatlantic for you, Tim..a few streets, surely? Great article though. ...SerialNumber54129...speculates 10:55, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On "Stockbrokers' Tudor" I was going to link to the Tudor Revival architecture article until I read it and found that the phrase "Stockbroker's Tudor" appeared nowhere in it, which I think would confuse and perhaps annoy anyone who clicked on the link. I may possibly revise that article a little, at which point I shall link to it. On 'blocks', I was surprised you think it wholly American. I have just checked the Times archives and "several blocks away" repeatedly comes up in a British context. Tim riley talk 11:47, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The Times, very good. "Block", yes—"You've been round the block a few times mate," as in, circuit— but "Blocks"? Cambridge Dictionary—"Mainly US"—and OED, "esp. in U.S. and Canada." For such a quintessentially English character it jangles so. IMHO of course. Fair point regarding the Tudor architecture though. ...SerialNumber54129...speculates 12:22, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for comments and support. Tim riley talk 15:17, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No problem Tim riley; the important stuff is in my view the prose, as it's almost always waht the reader (IN WP: CAPS) is here for; and although we are indeeed a serious publication, there's no harm whatsoever in giving that reader the sizzlng gypsies they will appreciate all the more for it being fully sourced, neutral, and well-toned. My other comments are really cosmetic; since that there same reader is very likely / almost certainly going to have learned their English from US-weighted sources, they will, ironically, understand your use of "block" completely. ...SerialNumber54129...speculates 15:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Stage designs section

edit

I don't as a rule attempt to review my own FACs, but I feel I should mention that I have just added to the article a list of Lancaster's stage designs from his first in 1951 to his last in 1971. I don't think anyone will object to it, but I raise it here as it is an addition since all the above comments and support were contributed. Tim riley talk 15:39, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

edit

Hi Tim, I see a few duplinks (the originals mainly in Postwar and the dups in Stage design) so pls review -- won't hold up promotion though. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:56, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Ian. I was taking advantage of what seems to be an informal convention that in Life and Works articles, it is legit to have important terms linked in both Life and Works sections (I've been getting away with it for years), but I'll certainly review, as you request. Tim riley talk 13:15, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I get that, I sometimes do it myself in long military unit articles (linking the same things under both Current Role and History) so as long as there's a rationale I don't see a particular issue... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 20:34, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Osbert_Lancaster/archive1&oldid=1136096251"