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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John Young (astronaut)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 26 December 2020 [1].

John Young (astronaut) edit

Nominator(s): Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the Gemini, Apollo, and Space Shuttle-era astronaut, John Young. This article just passed its GA nomination, and I hope to continue its improvement to FA status. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Passing comments from Spicy edit

Nice work on the article. I am not feeling up to doing a full review at the moment, but here are a few things I noticed while skimming.

  • Check that ref numbers are in order.
    Think I fixed all instances (I'm sure I'll notice one that I missed as soon as I submit this comment). Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:49, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:20-02-001-aviation.jpg is a derivative work. What's the copyright status of the original artwork?
    I never checked *facepalm* beyond seeing that the photo itself wasn't copyrighted, but I see that I'm wrong with that plan. I'll remove it for the time being and see if I can find any copyright info. My assumption is that it is copyrighted and unavailable for free use. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:30, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you explain how astronautix.com and collectspace.com are high quality reliable sources?
    I was under the impression that they were. But to cover my bases, I have replaced the CollectSpace interview with interviews published by NASA at the same event, and I replaced the Astronautix source with scholarly work published by Steven Hawley in the Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:26, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
CollectSPACE is edited by Robert Pearlman, who is a recognized space historian. I think it's been discussed at one of my Apollo FACs, favorably, but I'd have to poke through.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:51, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good then - to be clear I wasn't implying that these sources are unreliable, just that it wasn't entirely obvious to me that they are RS from a quick look. Spicy (talk) 19:44, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am concerned by the article's heavy reliance on Forever Young: A Life of Adventure in Air and Space, which is an autobiography and not really an independent source. Have all possible sources been consulted?
    I'll see if I can find more sources about the missions, as well as anything else about his life. Information about his pre- and post-spaceflight careers was surprisingly sparse (or my Google skills are lacking) and I relied a lot more on his autobiography than I wanted to. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:30, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Definitely realizing that I was lazier than I should have been regarding multiple resources (including some that I had either as a PDF on my computer or a book on my shelf) and am working my way through improving the refs (and the content) of the mission sections. Not finding much more about Young's early life or his time in management. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 12:10, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Spicy: Did what I could to reduce the use of Young's autobiography; could I get your thoughts on it now? Balon Greyjoy (talk) 16:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Spicy: Would you be able to return and provide further feedback for the review? Thanks! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Spicy (talk) 18:16, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt edit

I gather ref improvement is in progress so I'll hold off on reviewing until I'm pinged. Some of the books by Burgess or French contain short bios of some of the astronauts, I'll look through what I have and see what I can find.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:51, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's a thumbnail bio, a page or two, in Colin Burgess's Moon Bound: Choosing and Preparing NASA's Lunar Astronauts. If you send me an email I can email you a copy or alternatively tell you where you can download one if it's too big to send.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:31, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt: Completed the ref improvement (famous last words)! Looking at the info in the Burgess book, is there much additional info about Young's early like/late career in the provided bio? Thanks! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 16:54, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I will let you know. Meantime, I'll proceed.
  • I think his selection as an astronaut, which group/year would be usefully in lede.
  • " He completed a Pacific deployment as fire control and division officer in the Sea of Japan during the Korean War." Presumably this was aboard the Laws and I would say so, it reads oddly to describe him as in the Sea of Japan with no mention of ship.
  • "In 1962, Young was assigned to fly with Fighter Squadron 143 (VF-143) until his selection as an astronaut candidate in September 1962" Astronaut candidate? As I understand it, when they were selected by NASA, they became astronauts.
  • Removed "candidate." Definitely something I had read previously and I didn't think about it when I was typing that. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 18:38, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Young was assigned to work on the environmental controls system and survivor gear. Young's group selected the David Clark G3C pressure suit," I might say control rather than controls. The word "group" could be taken to refer to the Group II astronauts, or to the people he was working with in his specialty at NASA.
  • Typo on controls, and I replaced "group" with "team" Balon Greyjoy (talk) 18:42, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On the third orbit, Young fired the retrorocket " singular or plural?
  • Is it worth mentioning that Young was reprimanded over the sandwich?
  • Could you clarify what you're asking? Do you think the sandwich description/subsequent investigation is too long and its not worth mentioning, or do you think there should be more info about Young getting reprimanded? Thanks! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 18:45, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't mention the reprimand. I'm asking whether it should.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:03, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not finding any sources about any sort of official reprimand for Young, only that it became a bit of a scandal and reflected badly on him and NASA. Any additional info on this? Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:19, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Try this.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:34, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My opinion is to leave it out, since all that source says is that Young was reprimanded, but there's no specifics about the reprimand itself (was there any sort of punishment or just Young getting a stern talking to?). I think putting it in there implies some sort of negative consequences for Young, which will seem unexplained because the next section talks about his subsequent crew assignment. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:57, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It apparently was in written form since the NYT profile of Young before Apollo 10 mentions he kept it on his desk next to the plastic-encased sandwich remains. I'd tend to agree with you. There were no regulations against what he did (in fact, this seems to be what caused Slayton to require prior approval of items to be flown) and it certainly did not hold him back in his career.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:58, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After Gemini 3, Grissom and Young were assigned as backup commander and pilot for Gemini 6A" I guess if you want to be technical, when they were assigned, it was for Gemini 6. That was changed to 6A after the mission did not launch when it was supposed to.
  • "The primary mission of Gemini 10 was to dock with an Agena target vehicle and use its engines to maneuver, which had been a failed objective of Gemini 8 and Gemini 9. " The maneuvering failed, yes, but Gemini 8 did dock with an Agena. I'd be clearer.
  • "At 3:39 PM, the Agena target vehicle launched and successfully entered orbit. Gemini 10 launched as scheduled at 5:20 PM on July 18, 1966 from LC-19," I'd mention the date early on.
  • "PM" Don't we lower case am and pm?
  • "After 18 hours into the flight," This is odd phrasing
  • Took it out; I figure it's not a relevant part of the story. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:37, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I really question whether tears need a link.
  • I was link-happy at the time I guess. Removed the link. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:37, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "due to irritation from the anti fog compound in their masks. Masks or helmets?
  • Changed to helmets, but I think it could go either way since the anti-fog would be in the front-facing mask of their helmets. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:37, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After the crew was recovered aboard the ship, flight controllers completed several burns on the Agena target vehicle because putting it in a 352 kilometers (219 mi) circular orbit to be used as a target for future missions.[7]:350" You use "because" but never give a reason.
  • Looks like I changed what I wanted it to say mid-sentence and didn't catch it. Rephrased. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:37, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On November 13, 1968, NASA announced that the Apollo 10 crew would be commanded by Stafford and with Cernan as the Lunar Module Pilot and Young as Command Module Pilot." Shouldn't this be in order of rank?
  • Made this change, but I don't know if there's seniority between the CMP/LMP. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:37, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "To get realistic training, mission control linked the Command Module and Lunar Module simulators to work with the crew in two spacecraft simultaneously." I'm not sure you're making your point. Maybe "to get realistic training, Young in the Command Module simulator, and Stafford and Cernan in the Lunar Module simulator, were linked with each other and with mission control." That's probably not perfect, but it gets the point across.
  • "Apollo Program manager" Apollo Program Spacecraft manager. The Apollo Program manager was Sam Phillips.
  • "Duke exposed both the primary and backup crews to the German measles, causing Swigert to replace Ken Mattingly, who was not immune to German measles, two days prior to the launch.[10]:88[11]" I would suggest the passive voice, so "causing the replacement of Ken Mattingly by Swigert", as it is it sounds like an usurpation. I might identify Mattingly as the prime crew's CMP.
  • "To prepare for their EVAs, Young and Duke participated in field exercises to prepare for the geological research." I'd avoid the double use of prepare.
  • "Young tripped over the cables to the heat flow sensors, which broke their communication link with Earth.[12]" I'd make it clearer these were the sensors' communication links, not the astronauts.
  • Check capitalization of "crater" for consistency.
  • I suspect you have the wrong Christmas Island. I think you want the one in Kiribati.
  • "SRBs" and these are?
  • It might be worth mentioning that Young and the other three early Space Shuttle astronauts were cited in the award of the Collier Trophy to NASA and others, although they didn't get it themselves.
I've made a fair number of hands on edits. Give it a careful read please. I will do the same once you're done with this.
Thanks for your edits; definitely not surprised but a little embarrassed with how many silly errors I managed to put in this article. I'll address your comments in the coming days; thanks for them! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:31, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I will reproduce some text from Moon Bound on the talk page of this FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:57, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Are you ready for me to give it a re-read?--Wehwalt (talk) 11:42, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt: That would be much appreciated; thanks! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Further comments:
  • What is your capitalization method for spacecraft (and for that matter, military) ranks? You have him as Commander (Apollo 16) but then as command module pilot (Apollo 10), and yet again, commander (Apollo 16, still in lead). In passing, Apollo 16 is double-linked and the info somewhat repetitive.
  • Standardized the spacecraft and military ranks as lower case. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 16:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed the double-links. What do you think should be removed from Apollo 16? I assume its about the 4th and 5th paragraphs describing surface operations. I think there's a lot of similar talk about surface operations, but I want to highlight what Young and Duke did on the surface. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 16:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm talking about the lead. "He became the ninth person to walk on the Moon as commander of the Apollo 16 mission in 1972. " vs. "He was the commander of Apollo 16, and walked on the Moon's surface." I would change the second one, perhaps "After that, he commanded Apollo 16, and spent three days on the lunar surface with fellow astronaut Charles Duke, exploring the Descartes Highlands." Or something. The point is, if you return to the subject, and probably you should, make it about something a little different.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:51, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good point. Made the change to what you suggested (but I switched the order of the Descartes Highlands and Charles Duke). Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:11, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why VF-103 vs. VFA-103?
  • At the time it was VF-103, according to Young's biography. The squadron's page states that it later changed to VFA-103. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 16:23, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You still haven't lower-cased all the "PM"s (Gemini 10, for example).
  • "both at the Manned Spacecraft Center and at Cape Canaveral" Was the place where they trained called Cape Canaveral in 1968/9?
  • I'd mention that Apollo 10 was the dress rehearsal for the lunar landing. As it is, the significance of the mission is not stated.
  • I added "It would serve as a final test for the procedures and hardware before the first lunar landing." I think that expands upon just stating the objectives for an F-type mission. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 16:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Capitalization of Command Module and Lunar Module not consistent, please check throughout.
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:51, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for coming back to provide more feedback; hopefully it can get to FA before the review times out. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 16:48, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "from an exterior camera" Was there only one in the SIM bay? Apollo 15 had two.
  • Good catch. The sources I used didn't specify, but Young's autobiography mentions two cameras. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:16, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it's worth mentioning from the source I gave you that Young remained on astronaut flight status until his retirement.
  • I think that will be a little confusing to the reader to explicitly say that Young never came off flight status, because then the question comes up of why he didn't fly for the final 21 years of his NASA career if he was on flight status the whole time. I think it's sufficient to say that his position became managerial, and the article doesn't say anything about him coming off flight status. Also, I'm not sure what source to which you are referring; do you mean the Burgess book with Young's bio that you mentioned earlier? If so, I do not have the book/bio. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:22, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I put the relevant text here. I agree it was probably honorary, as the last Moon walker on the NASA roster.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:48, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fn 10, 14, 27, 30 and 41 (and any more I may have missed that cite an entire book) are page numbers available?
  • I replaced 41 with a web reference. The others include page numbers using the {{rp}} template. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:07, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt: Think I addressed everything. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:22, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Seems adequate, after the changes.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:30, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - Pass edit

Lovely images; the NASA-related articles make me so glad that US gov't images are in the public domain. Just a few small things to fix:

  • File:John Young is hiosted into helicopter after Gemini 10 flight 1966.jpg - the two source links are dead. Can you find replacements?
    Couldn't find replacement links; changed to a similar photo that was on NASA Flickr (and had already been uploaded to Commons) Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:13, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:John W. Young on the Moon.jpg - a source link would be nice if the image is hosted elsewhere online. That said, the locale makes it obvious this is a NASA image and public domain, so if you can't find a working source link, I don't think anyone would complain.
    Added a source URL Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:01, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Apollo16GrandPrix.webm - source link is dead (or my browser can't play the video at its source?). Can you find a replacement (or tell me to get a new browser)?
    Not smart enough to know the reason behind this, but the link to the video itself doesn't appear to be working, but it's available (with the same URL) via a link on the page about Apollo 16 operations. I updated the source URL to said page. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:20, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Columbia Commander John Young - GPN-2000-001314.jpg - source links are dead. The page it brings me to indicates the images are now hosted on Flickr. Perhaps you can find them?
    Couldn't find the link for the original photo; updated to a separate photo with a link to its NASA Gallery page. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would be nice to add Alt text so folks using screen readers can get a sense of what you're showing. If you're uncomfortable adding alt text yourself, I'm happy to do it for you.
    I addded alt text, but I'm still relatively new to the process, so I would appreciate any feedback on what I wrote. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's all! Ajpolino (talk) 05:10, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ajpolino: Think I addressed all of your comments. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wonderful, and the new images and alt text look great. Ajpolino (talk) 17:09, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ajpolino: If you have the time, would you be able to further review the article? Thanks! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Gladly, just give me a few days to find the time. Ajpolino (talk) 16:45, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 16:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note to say I'm still looking forward to reviewing this article, but am temporarily swamped with real life. I hope to get to this over the coming weekend. Sorry for the sluggishness. Ajpolino (talk) 06:03, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment edit

This has been open for over four weeks and has yet to pick up a support. I have added it to Urgents, but unless it receives several further in depth reviews over the next week or so I am afraid that it is going to time out. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:25, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the update Gog the Mild. I'll ping the editors who have left comments already. Fingers crossed we can get this FAC across the finish line! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:22, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in. I'll do a text review this week. --Neopeius (talk) 14:46, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Text Review by Neopeius (Support as of 12-11-20) edit

Lede

Early years and education

  • "Young's father joined the Navy as a Seabee, and left Young" delete comma (commas are generally incorrect before dependent, noncontrasting clauses)
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:31, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and another aboard and the USS Newport News." delete second and
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:31, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His senior year, Young served as the regiment commander of his ROTC detachment." delete the
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:31, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Young graduated second in his class with a Bachelor of Science degree in aeronautical engineering, and was commissioned as an ensign" delete comma or add "he" after "and"
    Comma deleted. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:31, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Navy Service

  • "Young returned to flying the SNJ-5, and advanced to fly the T-28 Trojan, F6F Hellcat, and the F9F Panther." delete comma after after SNJ-5 or add "he" after "and"
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:36, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Young flew during the Suez Crisis but did not fly in combat." You didn't have to delete the comma before but. If you're going to delete that comma, you definitely need to kill the commas before dependent clauses.
    Thought that was something you recommended. I'll put the comment back in. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:36, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " and later that year began the transition to fly the F8U Crusader." delete the
    All of the other aircraft that he flies are referred to as "the 'aircraft name'" so I'm not sure about this change. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:36, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ", and returned home from deployment." delete comma
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:36, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " He worked alongside Jim Lovell" future astronaut Jim Lovell
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:36, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " In 1962, he set two world time-to-climb records in the F-4, and reached 3,000 meters" replace with ",reaching" (the comma is unnecessary and this construction makes it clearer the two clauses are connected.
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:36, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NASA Career

  • "In September 1962, Young was selected to join Astronaut Group 2." NASA Astronaut Group 2.
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as the pilot of Gemini 3, which was commanded by Gus Grissom." delete "which was"
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Biological experiements" experiments
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the effect of radiaton" the effects of radiation
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Both primary and backup crews participated in the capsule system tests" Gemini 3's capsule system tests
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The launch went according to the flight plan, and the capsule entered a 122 by 182 kilometers (76 by 110 mi) elliptical orbit." It didn't. It was delayed. Suggest "Gemini 3 launched at 9:24 AM from LC-19 with no further difficulties, and the capsule entered a 122 by 182 kilometers (76 by 110 mi) elliptical orbit as planned."
    Took a little of a different route with this, but I removed "as planned." Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Young recognized multiple anomalous system readings and realized" determined
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "lower its perigree" perigee
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gemini 10

  • "and use its engines to maneuver. Using the Agena engines to maneuver had been a failed objective of Gemini 8 and Gemini 9." replace with "and use its engines to maneuver — a failed objective of Gemini 8 and Gemini 9."
    Not sure about this one; I think it doesn't make it clear what the failed Gemini 8/9 objective was. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:56, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The mission planned for Gemini 10 to dock with its assigned Agena target vehicle and maneuver" and then maneuver
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:55, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " to rendezvous with the Agena that had been previously assigned to Gemini 8. " with the already orbiting
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:55, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Agena target vehicle launched on July 18, 1966" was launched (the target vehicle is not the booster)
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:55, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " to prepare for the rendezvous, and had to make" and he had to make
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:55, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to cancel a planned docking practice once the capsule had completed its rendezvous." What does this mean? Was he going to undock and redock?
    That was the original plan, but they cancelled it. How would you recommend it be rephrased? Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:55, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    "to cancel planned additional docking practice..."
    Change made! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 12:31, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*"Gemini 10 used the rockets on the Agena to maneuver and rendezvous with the Gemini 8 Agena, and set a new altitude record of 764 kilometers (475 mi). "setting yet another new altitude record" (deletes comma and makes clear that two records were set consecutively.

  • I didn't add "yet" but otherwise done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:55, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "lowered their perigree" perigee
    I am the worst with this typo. *facepalm* Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:55, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apollo 10

  • "After the delays caused by the Apollo 1 fire" add "in January 1967"
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:02, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "commanded by Stafford and with Young" "commanded by Stafford, with Young..."
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:02, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Apollo 10 would be the only F-type mission, which was crewed entry into lunar orbit" entailed
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:02, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and testing of the lunar module, without a landing." ",but without a landing."
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:02, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in the lunar module simulator to get realistic training" "provide"
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:02, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which was flow by mission control into a solar orbit." flown
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:02, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apollo 16

  • "On March 3, 1971, Young was assigned as the commander of Apollo 16," delete the
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:18, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as they were believed to contain volcanic material older than the lunar mare" add "that had been the sites of the previous Apollo landings."
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:18, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Apollo Site Selection Board considered landing sites at Alphonsus crater and the Descartes Highlands, and chose" "and it chose"
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:18, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " over concerns that it had been damaged and found no issues" ",but found no issues."
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:18, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mission Control informed Young that the U.S. House of Representatives had passed the space budget," "passed that year's space budget"
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:18, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The backup crew was originally the Apollo 15 crew, but Deke Slayton removed them from the assignment after learning about the Apollo 15 postal covers incident." I'm of the belief that a fresh reader shouldn't have to click a number of links to get context. I'd rephrase this to "The backup crew was originally the Apollo 15 crew (David R. Scott, Afred M. Worden, and James B. Irwin), but they were removed from the assignment by the senior manager of the astronaut office, Deke Slayton, for taking unauthorized postal covers to the lunar surface for potential resale." (you could delete "by senior manager of the astronaut office, Deke Slayton," but I don't think his name should appear in the narrative without explanation -- the casual reader has to comb through Deke's article to know who he was.)
Speaking as the resident authority on the postal covers scandal, there was no "potential" about the sale (not resale). They had agreed to sell 100 of them. And technically, once Slayton found out that unauthorized covers had been flown, he got Irwin to retire, which let NASA choose an entirely new backup crew since the crews were supposed to fly as units (the replacement of Mattingly by Swigert was a special situation, since Duke of the backup crew was also compromised), but what is said here will do for the reader more interested in Young. I'd just say (if it's necessary to say anything) that they had agreed to sell some of them.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:16, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt: "potential" could be deleted. That said, an agreement to sell is not a sale. (also, thank you regarding "re-sale" vs "sale" -- I had thought they had purchased the covers and then were going to resell them after they got back) --Neopeius (talk) 19:07, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Scott arranged through someone at NASA to have the envelopes printed, though Al Bishop paid for them. Scott said they paid for the stamps themselves and I've found nothing to contradict that. They're not "covers" until they are stamped and canceled, so either way it's sale rather than resale. Sorry to hijack the discussion.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:30, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I rephrased this to remove Deke Slayton and also to explain what the incident was in the link. However, I decided not to include the names of the Apollo 15 crew. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:18, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Space Shuttle Program

  • "to provide design inputs" input
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but the remainder of the spaceflights during his tenure were conducted by the Space Shuttle" "were Space Shuttle missions."
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

STS-1

  • "The first attempt for STS-1 to launch was on April 10, 1981," "The first launch attempt for STS-1 was on..."
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The crew inspected their thermal tiles, and determined" delete comma
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a KH-11 satellite was used to image the orbiter and determine it was safe to reenter the atmosphere." "a KH-11 satellite was used to image the orbiter, and it determined that the orbiter was safe to reenter the atmosphere."
    Done, except that I added "it was determined" to make sure it's not like the KH-11 was doing the decision making. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Young eating on the Coluumbia middeck during STS-9" (picture) Columbia
    Some nice editor already fixed my typo! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

STS-9

  • " Young would routinely sit in the simulators" Young routinely sat
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ", and flew the Shuttle Training Aircraft" ", and he flew..."
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Prior to reentry, Columbia had two of its four primary General Purpose Computers (GPC) fail, which caused a delay in landing as they had to reset them and load the Entry Options Control Mode into an alternate GPC. After the GPC was repaired, Columbia successfully reentered the atmosphere and landed at Edwards AFB on December 8." "Prior to reentry, two of Columbia's four primary General Purpose Computers (GPC) failed, which caused a delay in landing as the crew had to reset them and load the Entry Options Control Mode into an alternate GPC. After the GPCs were repaired, Columbia successfully reentered the atmosphere and landed at Edwards AFB on December 8."
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NASA Management

  • "Young was scheduled to fly as the commander of STS-61-J" "Young had been scheduled..."
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to prevent a repeat of the Challenger disaster, and advocated for the strengthening" ", and he advocated"
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " In February 1996, he was assigned as the Associate Director (Technical) of Johnson Space Center. Young was involved in the development of" "Johnson Space Center, where he was involved..."
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Throughout his career, he had more than 15,275 hours flying time" ", he logged more than..."
    I view "logged" as a bit of WP:JARGON. I rephrased this, but I left out "logged." My take is that logged would be an exact time, so it shouldn't be a general estimate. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Personal Life

  • "Later that year, he married Susy Feldman and they lived in Houston." comma after Feldman
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Young was friends with George H.W. and Barbara Bush, and vacationed" ", and he vacationed"
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "at his home in Houston of complications from pneumonia," "in Houston, of complications..."
    Done. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Awards and honors

  • "In October 2018, Northrop Grumman announced that the Cygnus spacecraft for their tenth cargo resupply mission to the International Space Station would be named S.S. John Young.[49] Cygnus NG-10 successfully launched on November 17, 2018," As written, it is not clear that Cygnus NG-10 was actually named after Young.
    Added the Cygnus NG-10 naming earlier; hope the new take clears it up. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Balon Greyjoy: --Neopeius (talk) 15:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Running into a few minor delays IRL on this one, but I want to acknowledge this review. I'll get to the changes soon! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:45, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Balon Greyjoy: Not a problem. :) --Neopeius (talk) 19:23, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Neopeius: I think I have addressed all of your comments! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:33, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Balon Greyjoy: Your pushbacks were all reasonable. I made a recommended change above per your request. With that, you have my enthusiastic support :) --Neopeius (talk) 12:22, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SandyGeorgia (Support) edit

  • See MOS:SANDWICH, images go after links.[2]
  • External links are good, punctuation in image captions good, no duplicate links, no excess of however, also and the ilk.
  • Can this image caption be improved? Young following his Gemini 10 flight ... a bit general relative to the image
    Updated. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:18, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can install this script to keep your WP:ENDASHes vs. hyphens in order[3]
  • Template:Rp is an odious referencing system, creating unsightly clutter, but if that's what you use, so WP:CITEVAR it is.
    I personally prefer it, but I know it's less popular than using Template:sfn. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:56, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please check MOS:LQ throughout, sample: changed its setting from "attitude hold" to "automatic."
    Corrected the one you pointed out; not seeing other violations. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:21, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Generally good use of WP:NBSP on the spacecraft and times, but sporadic ones are missing ... and they aren't really needed at the beginning of sentences or other places where they aren't likely to wrap.
    I added quite a few; especially where in would say something like "in 1993" to to keep the year from being the start of a new line. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:40, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please check use of hatnotes. My understanding is that the main template is used when the content of this article is a summary of that article. If it is not, something like {{further}} or {{see also}} is called for. As one example, this article is not a summary of Gemini 3, as in ... Project Gemini --> Gemini 3 --> Main article: Gemini 3 and in fact, probably a link suffices.
    I would prefer to use {{further}} instead of just linking it in the article. I know it's already linked, but I think it's nice to have a special shout-out for that mission's page to find further info. Changing the hatnotes now. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:43, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Missing publisher, check citation completeness throughout: Volz, Brianna (January 6, 2018). "Astronaut John Young, who grew up in Orlando, dies at 87". Retrieved October 19, 2020.
    Added. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:56, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does the "class 23" have to be in the lead? A non-military person is at first inclined to think that might have meant to be 1923, and then has to read back to realize no, the classes are numbered ... so not sure it is helpful to have that in the lead, which is most-read.
    Removed. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:19, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sheesh, this guy is a real under-achiever. :) :)
  • If there is more detail, it would be interesting ... motivation, selection process, what led him to this ... until his selection as an astronaut in September 1962
    I found surprisingly little information on him as a person, even from his own biography. It was surprisingly difficult to find any sort of personal side of things. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:56, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Andrew Chaikin's book, if you have it, has some discussion of Young, especially at pp. 463-464, and his post-Apollo career beginning on p. 572 that may be worth looking at, if you haven't already.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:07, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just looked through those pages to see if I had missed anything. The description at 464-464 is interesting, but it just feels like an anecdote describing Young as smart, which I think is already communicated in discussing his engineering background. Regarding page 572-575, it's mostly about his criticism of NASA post-Challenger, time in NASA management, and advocating for colonization of the Moon. Thanks for the ref, but I don't think these expand the Young narrative for Wikipedia. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 05:59, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Throughout his career, he flew for more than 15,275 hours ... awkward ... During his career ??
    Change made. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:41, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Considering that there is an autobiography, the article seems to have a wealth of information about his career, but little information about the person. They vacationed with the Bush family is leaving me, the reader, unsatisfied as there must be more to say about the life and motivations of such an underachiever. Do the sources permit you to tell us more about him?
    Even with his autobiography, there was a lack of personal info about him. The Bush family vacation felt like I was grasping at straws. There are pages in his autobiography about selecting Space Shuttle abort landing sites, and a scant few paragraphs about his two marriages and his children, and no mention of his grandchildren. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:56, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I've got, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:27, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: Thanks for the review! I think I have addressed all of your comments. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:46, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hawkeye7 edit

  • Link mission specialist, payload specialist, 5/16 inch star
    Linked the first two; the star is linked when describing his USN Distinguished Service medal. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:53, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't bother with the backup crews for Apollo 10 and 16, but that's just me.
    I would like to leave it in for the sake of standardization with the Gemini missions. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:04, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • but were replaced when Shepard was diagnosed with Meniere's disease. Not quite; Shepard continued on flight status for a few months after the disgnosis. I would suggest adding "and was grounded".
    I reworded it to say "were replaced after Shepard..." so that way it doesn't seem it was an immediate switch, but indicates that it was the result of his diagnosis. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:06, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • but the remainder of the spaceflights during his tenure were Space Shuttle missions. Not quite; he took over when the last Skylab mision was ongoing.
    Added Skylab to the list. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:03, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • As the chief of the Astronaut Office, Young determined the crews that flew on the subsequent test and operational Space Shuttle missions In the source, Young attributes this role to George Abbey.
    Changed to "recommended." Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:56, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I might add that Susy was a TRW contractor.
    I'm leaving that out. According to this profile she was a secretary for a space contractor. I think generically saying she worked as a space contractor implies that's how she and Young met, when I'm not seeing any indication of that. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:03, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • eleven primary and backup crew positions I'm having trouble with this: Gemini 3, 6 (backup), 10, Apollo 2 (backup), 7 (backup), 10, 13 (backup), 16, 17 (backup), STS-1, ST-6, STS-61J. Um, that comes to twelve. Have I miscounted?
    I didn't count STS-61J. My thought is not to count it, since it wasn't like he went through the entire crew prep process, as it was scheduled for much later than STS-51-L. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:53, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the subject, Young, along with the other 12 Gemini astronauts There were 16 Gemini astronauts; the source makes it clear that Grissom, Coopera and Schirra had already been inducted as members of the Mercury Seven. Suggest adjusting the wording slightly.
    I removed "12" to show that it was all of the Gemini astronauts. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 19:09, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would credit James R. Hansen as co-writer of his autobiography.
    Added. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:53, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The infobox says he is buried in Arlington, but this does not appear in the article anywhere.
    Removed. It was previously in the article but removed because of a lack of WP:RS Balon Greyjoy (talk) 08:53, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    What's wrong with using the Arlington web site? [4] Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:09, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Good find! I was using this and didn't see any reference to Young. I'll add it in. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 19:01, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:32, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Hawkeye7: I addressed your comments. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:08, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am still concerned that the article ignores the criticism of Young's performance as Chief of the Astronaut Office. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:14, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hawkeye7: The only source that I have seen that criticizes Young's performance as Chief of the Astronaut Office is Riding Rockets. While I don't mean to discount the opinions of Col Mullane, I don't want to give undue weight to one astronaut's opinions and make it seem like it was widespread criticism. This article discusses Young's belief that his reassignment was the result of his post-Challenger criticism. Do you have a good place to look for further evidence of criticism of Young? Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:17, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Hawkeye7, would you be able to undertake a source review for formatting and reliability? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:46, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. I'll do it tomorrow. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Aarrgh. I haven't got Hansen and Young here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:14, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Hawkeye7: I have it with me; what information are you looking to verify? Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:12, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass edit

  • fn 4a says p. 161 but the fact that he was Navy ROTC regimental commander is on p. 154.
    Fixed. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:20, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • fn 3a: "roomed" seems a misleading term for "bunked with a group of thirty midshipmen"
    Rephrased to say "worked alongside" Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:20, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • fn 4b, c, d, e checked okay.
  • fn 13 has a location but fn 11 and 25 don't

Added locations to 11 and 25. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:20, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • fn 30 missing location

Added location. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 07:20, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All sources are high quality. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:53, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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