Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hitler's prophecy/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 1 December 2020 [1].
Hitler's prophecy edit
This article is about the most notorious phrase from Hitler's speeches: "If international finance Jewry inside and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, the result will be not the Bolshevization of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe." I'd like to thank Ian Rose for the GA review and Tenryuu for the copyedit, as well as everyone who participated in the A-class review. Since then, the article has undergone another round of revisions to make it more concise while retaining all important information. (t · c) buidhe 21:12, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
Support. I think this article easily meets the criteria. It is engaging and professionally written. The GA review was exemplary and leaves little to add in the way of suggestions for improvement. I don't like to see red links (especially in figure legends); if you log out and click on one, you will see why, but that's just me. My congratulations to the nominator and everyone else who has contributed to the article. Graham Beards (talk) 20:04, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
SG review edit
Resolved comments
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I have not read any further. I had to read unpleasantries when it was my job (FAC delegate), but I don't want to read further into this topic lest I lose my breakfast. From what I can tell so far and looking over the article for MOS ... Competent writing, worthy candidate, I don't see any MOS issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:33, 16 October 2020 (UTC) |
CommentsSupport by Kaiser matias
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I'll go through it further shortly, but I noticed there are two headings titled "References" (in the body of the article and then the citations). Would it be possible to change one of them? Kaiser matias (talk) 18:00, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- Done (changed the first to "References to the prophecy"). (t · c) buidhe 18:03, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Further comments:
- There is mention of various historians throughout (Kershaw, Koonz, etc), however there is a mix between noting their nationality ("German historian Hans Mommsen") and not ("historian Ian Kershaw"). It would be good to be consistent, and unless I'm missing something, their nationality isn't really relevant and could probably be dropped.
- Removed all. I agree with you that for this article it's not relevant.
- Overall the article is solid, however there is a lot of direct quotations used from other sources. While quoting verbatim is good, I think it leans a little heavily here on that, and feel that some cases could be summarized without quoting directly. That said, I'll also let other reviewers comment on the matter, and will come back to this. Kaiser matias (talk) 19:26, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- If there are any specific instances that would benefit from paraphrasing or cutting, I'm all ears. The article has already been through several rounds of editing to reduce direct quotes; this version from a month ago had significantly more. (t · c) buidhe 20:13, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Certainly. Let me think it over for the next few days, and like I said I'll let others comment as well. I'll definitely get back to you. Solid article by the way, does a good job of giving one of his most famous speeches context. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:53, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Having watched the improvements the past couple weeks on the article as a result of other comments, I'm happy to support now. Kaiser matias (talk) 15:45, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Certainly. Let me think it over for the next few days, and like I said I'll let others comment as well. I'll definitely get back to you. Solid article by the way, does a good job of giving one of his most famous speeches context. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:53, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Image review edit
- Suggest adding alt text
- File:Wochenspruch_der_NSDAP_7_September_1941.jpg: the EU tag in use requires "reasonable evidence" be presented of lack of known authorship. Ditto File:Das_Lachen_wird_ihnen_vergehen!!!.jpg, File:Men_with_an_unidentified_unit_execute_a_group_of_Soviet_civilians_kneeling_by_the_side_of_a_mass_grave.jpg
- Some of the Wochenspruch posters credit a known author, eg this one. This one doesn't. I have seen it reproduced in several sources, such as Bytwerk's website [2], IWM website[3], and various books. None give an author. IWM states it is unknown.
- For this one, I blurred the photographs because I do not know what their origin was. I don't think the design of the poster rises to threshold of originality, at least according to US law. It is mentioned in Herf's book and he does not state the author, nor does California archives[4] or USHMM.[5]
- Given the content of this photograph, it would be news if anyone owned up to it. I expect USHMM would know about it.
- File:View_of_the_old_synagogue_in_Aachen_after_its_destruction_during_Kristallnacht_01.jpg: the source seems to indicate that the archive believes the image to be PD, not that the archive itself has released rights to it
- It's not clear based on the source why it is PD, but I take from it that both US and German sources consider it to be in the public domain, which seems sufficient to me.
- File:Naked_Jewish_women_wait_in_a_line_before_their_execution_by_Ukrainian_auxiliary_police.jpg: where was this first published?
- Removed since I can't find proof.
- File:Jews_deported_from_Würzburg_march_down_the_Hindenburgstrasse_from_the_Platzscher_Garten_to_the_railroad_station.jpg: EU tag is based on lack of known author, but the source link seems to include an author attribution?
- As stated by USHMM, "The material was discovered in a barracks at Oberursel/Taunus by Isaac E. Wahler, who was then working in the office of Dr. Robert Kempner, American Deputy Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, Nuremberg. The files were entered into evidence at several war crimes trials, including the Ministries Trial, Case 11 of the Subsequent Nuremberg Proceedings (1947)." Wahler did not take the photos, he just found them. The photographer is unknown. If the copyright adhered to Wahler, it would be PD since he was a US govt employee.
- File:Eisenach_Synagogue;_November_Pogroms_(4408567247).jpg: is more specific tagging available?
- File:Der_ist_Schuld_am_Kriege!.jpg is currently nominated for deletion - this will need to be resolved before the FAC is closed. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:56, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Comments Support by Ovinus
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Lead edit
- I'd suggest splitting up the last sentence of the first paragraph into two because of its complexity.
- Done
- "as" in the last sentence of the second paragraph could be interpreted as "because" or "at the same time as". The sentence could be restructured or just use another word.
- This could really be either and/or both, so I rephrased.
Speech edit
- "two-and-a-half hours. It dealt" I think these two sentences could be merged, since neither sentence is that important.
- Done
- The first quote "Hitler first mocked them, remarking at 'how the whole democratic ... human race'." should probably be paraphrased.
- Axed
- Overall I agree with Kaiser matias above about the quotes; this section in particular feels a bit like an overload of them. I think the salient information to use the quotes directly is 1. what were Hitler's reasons, as given in the speech, for wanting to rid Europe of the Jews and 2. the "prophecy" itself (along with what immediately preceded it). The other quotes more serve as a snapshot of the speech's virulent antisemitism than understanding the prophecy, and so are better paraphrased.
- Thanks for your comment. I have now rewritten to move the quotes that aren't directly relevant to a new article about the speech itself.
- The last sentence after the blockquote is a bit confusing to me; did this occur in the same speech and after his prophecy?
- Actually, it occurred before, so I moved it up.
References to the prophecy edit
- Should wiktionary links to Ausrotten and Vernichten be lowercase? In any case, the link for Ausrotten doesn't work.
- Done
- Spurious curly quote in cite note [b].
- Fixed
- [c] should use {{' "}}
- Done
- "Walter Mattner" is described as a low-ranking Holocaust perpetrator; could this be more specific? (Lieutenant?) Also, should his name be un-wikilinked given his status?
- Yes, he is a lieutenant. However, a very notorious one whose letters have received sufficient coverage in reliable sources to meet WP:GNG.
- "On 30 January 1941, in a speech at the Sportpalast, Hitler mentioned the prophecy." → "Hitler mentioned the prophecy at a 30 January 1941 speech in the Sportpalast."
- Done
- I think Jewish Bolshevism could have its quotes removed from it, especially since it's juxtaposed with a direct quote rather than quotes intended to imply dubiety.
- Done
- "highlight the temporal proximity of this decision" → "highlight the proximity of this decision to the printing of the posters." I don't think "temporal" is necessary, and it's been a few sentences since the posters were introduced, so I think this clarifies things.
- Partly done: I retained the "temporal" because for me, "proximity" usually refers to spatial proximity.
- Could the blockquote in "The Jews are Guilty" be introduced with a colon or something?
- done
Analysis edit
- "while the Holocaust continued (between 1941 and 1945)" → "during the Holocaust (between 1941 and 1945)"
- done
- "Confino argues" → "He argues"
- Done
- Overarching idea: perhaps the word "Vernichtung" could be given primarily as a German word, with a parenthetical translation to English, since the meaning of the word is complex and this point is mentioned in the article?
- Not a bad idea, but the sources all consistently translate Vernichtung -> annihilation and use the English word, so I don't think this change would be helpful to readers.
- Sounds good.
- Not a bad idea, but the sources all consistently translate Vernichtung -> annihilation and use the English word, so I don't think this change would be helpful to readers.
- "[i]f" in one of the quotes; what is this from? Maybe just move "if" outside of the quote
- Removed
- Spurious double-quote in quote from Herf in Genocide
- Removed
- I think at least some of the numerous quotes from historians in Genocide should be paraphrased; it's a lot to take in.
- Paraphrased several of them.
'directions for action'"
should use {{' "}}- Done
- "After the war, Germans claimed ignorance" → "After the war, some/many Germans claimed ignorance"
- Done
Note that this is my first participation in FAC so please let me know if I'm doing this wrong. Sincerely, Ovinus (talk) 23:28, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- Welcome to FAC, and thanks for your comments! Sorry it took me to get so long to them, but I was thinking about how to accomplish it in the best way, (t · c) buidhe 08:13, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Source review - Pass edit
- Pass per my review at A class assessment
- Spot checks were not done but I can do them if requested by coords Aza24 (talk) 00:59, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
Support from Gog the Mild edit
I intend to claim points in the WikiCup for this review.
- Should the third word ("speech") be linked to 30 January 1939 Reichstag speech?
- done
- "The prophecy took on new meaning with the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941 and the German declaration of war against the United States that December, accelerating the systematic mass murder of Jews." I am struggling with this. Did the two new foes cause the prophecy to take on new meaning or did they accelerate mass murder? If both, this is not clear.
- Reworded
- OK, that is clearer. But it still comes across as conflating two issues. Maybe "The prophecy took on new meaning with the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941 and the German declaration of war against the United States that December when the systematic mass murder of Jews accelerated"?. Or "... which facilitated an acceleration of the systematic mass murder of Jews"?
- Done, using the second option
- OK, that is clearer. But it still comes across as conflating two issues. Maybe "The prophecy took on new meaning with the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941 and the German declaration of war against the United States that December when the systematic mass murder of Jews accelerated"?. Or "... which facilitated an acceleration of the systematic mass murder of Jews"?
- "it is also cited as evidence that Germans were aware that Jews were being exterminated." This may be true and cited, but should the same reasoning not apply equally to the rest of the world?
- The speech was heavily promoted in Nazi propaganda that was targeted to Germans specifically. It isn't clear that Hungarians or Brazilians would learn about Hitler's speeches and become aware about the persecution of Jews.
- "According to historian Ian Kershaw" → 'According to the historian Ian Kershaw'.
- "(paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party)" Perhaps preface with a definite article?
- Added
- Perhaps briefly introduce the concept of "Aryan" in the first paragraph of Background?
- Instead, I've rephrased to remove the word, which is unnecessary jargon.
- "According to historian Claudia Koonz" → 'According to the historian Claudia Koonz'.
- Note a: "different" begs the question of different from what? It may also be worth expanding a little on the role of the SS in the 1930s.
- I don't think this is the article for those details. I have added a bit more information.
- "blame it on the Jews". I know what you mean, but perhaps 'blame the Jews for inciting it' or similar?
- I don't think this part is important, so I removed it.
- "Historian Yehuda Bauer writes" → 'The historian Yehuda Bauer writes'.
- "István Csáky, foreign minister of Hungary" → 'István Csáky, the foreign minister of Hungary'.
- "František Chvalkovský, foreign minister of Czechoslovakia" I think that you get the idea re false titles. I assume that you are using them deliberately?
- I know there are different opinions on this, but I think it's more natural sounding and perfectly encyclopedic without "the". (Then again, I am a youngish American). Copyeditor Tenryuu apparently saw no issue with it. I have added "the" where there's a comma splice.
- I don't think that it is entirely a US/non-US thing, although I suspect that you are correct about it being more common in the States in younger age groups. I suspect that it reads oddly to many/most non-Americans. (A bit like "likely" to mean 'probably'; or how "amongst" or "amidst" to mean 'among' or 'in' may read to you.) But you are consistent and it is an acceptable if minority usage of US English, so fine.
- "Hitler's prediction about the Jews was reprinted in the party newspaper Völkischer Beobachter and in a dedicated pamphlet. The speech was broadcast live on radio." If the radio sentence came first, it would retain the chronological flow.
- Done
- "In February, another German wrote of "the inexorable extermination [Ausrottung]... What happened to the Armenians in Turkey ... is, more slowly and efficiently being done to the Jews"." if this is a comment by a random German, I don't see what it adds; if it is by someone of significance, or on behalf of an organisation, could we be told?
- OK, removed
- Introduce Moshe Yustman.
- Done
- "Police lieutenant and Holocaust perpetrator Walter Mattner wrote a letter to his wife justifying the murder" Do we know when?
- Added date
- "a record of following through with promises or threats". "with" → 'on'.
- Done
More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:34, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- "in the Baltics" This rings oddly in British English. Any reason not to use (the arguably more encyclopedic) Baltic States.
- They were at the time occupied by Nazi Germany and therefore did not exist as states. Your phrasing could give rise to incorrect implications regarding Baltic collaborationism.
- I am not convinced, but so long as you have a good reason for the usage, fine.
- "According to Goebbels' diary entry on 19 August, Hitler mentioned the prophecy when granting Goebbels' request to force Jews in Germany to wear yellow stars after the invasion of the Soviet Union was not as easy as expected." I think that you are trying to do too much with this sentence. Either some needs deleting or it needs unpacking a little.
- Split up by moving background on the campaign earlier.
- "historians highlight the temporal proximity to the posters". 'to the issue of the posters' or 'the display of the posters' or similar.
- Done
- "(supposedly responsible for German casualties in World War I and "now again hundreds of thousands")" Is there a reason this is in parentheses rather than commas?
- Switched to commas since you think that is better.
- "in Munich to the Nazi old guard to commemorate the Beer Hall Putsch." 'in Munich to the Nazi old guard commemorating the Beer Hall Putsch.' would avoid "to" twice in six words.
- Done
- "broadcast on German Home Service" → 'broadcast on the German Home Service'.
- Done
- "According to the Security Service (SD) public opinion reports" I am not sure that "the" is appropriate here.
- Rephrased
- "ordered newspapers to report on this speech as a front-page story". Maybe delete "on".
- Done
- "points to the most direct interpretation"> What is a "direct interpretation"? And which of the two possibilities is a reader supposed to assume Herf is suggesting?
- I'm not quite sure either and I don't think this sentence is adding enough to justify its existence, so I removed it.
More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:54, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for your comments! (t · c) buidhe 05:51, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- A couple of comments above. If I have not commented I am content with your change or explanation. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:01, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
More edit
- "expressing his expectation for a glorious future" "for" → 'of'.
- Done
- "in similar words as Hitler had used" "as" → 'to those'.
- Done
- Maybe link "Aryan" to Aryan#Modern usage#Nazism and white supremacy?
- Done
- "and adding, "The hour will come" "adding" → 'added'.
- Done
- "On 24 February, the anniversary of the founding of the Nazi Party, Hitler was absent but" You need t say what or where Hitler was absent from.
- Reworded
- "during Hitler's annual speech for the Nazi party old guard" Should the "p" be upper case?
- Done
- "described the statement as a public threat to murder the Jews and declaration of his intention"; 'and a declaration'?
- Done
- "of which the first is Hitler's tactical desire". "is" → 'was'.
- Done
- "If emigration failed and Western powers intervened in the war" I am not sure that the last bit makes sense. If there was a war, surely the Western powers would already be involved, and so could not "intervene"?
- I think Longerich is referring to UK/US, intervening in a continental European war: "He was contemplating a scenario in which the western powers, supported by the United States, could intervene in order to prevent him from continuing his expansionist policy in Europe, to which he was totally committed... Thus, if his threats had no effect, if, in other words, emigration did not make much progress, and if, in the event of a war, the western powers were not deterred from intervening, then they would be responsible for the further intensification of Jewish persecution predicted in his ‘prophecy’. Thus, Hitler was keeping all options open for further radicalizing his Jewish policy." Clarified without going into OR.
- Caption: "Results of the bombing of Hamburg". Possibly add the year?
- According to IWM, the photograph was taken "between August 1943 and 1945". Exact date not known, or else I would add it.
- "The Jews were held responsible for each death and would be made to pay in kind." Held responsible by whom?
- Clarified
- "At the International Military Tribunal, Der Stürmer publisher Julius Streicher was convicted" Perhaps give the year after "Tribunal"?
- Done
That's all from me. A wonderful article. Erm, you know what I mean. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:48, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
That looks good. Happy to support. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:43, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Support from Ian edit
Recusing coord duties here, I performed the GAN on this article -- which I think must have been a great challenge to research and write -- treating it as a potential MilHist A-Class candidate and FAC, so at those subsequent reviews I've let others say their piece and then checked the changes since I last read it. I see no reason to withhold support here. I'll add that I spotchecked several citations at the GAN and was satisfied with the result. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:48, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.