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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Green children of Woolpit/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:13, 1 May 2011 [1].

Green children of Woolpit edit

Green children of Woolpit (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Drmies (talk); Ealdgyth - Talk; Malleus Fatuorum 04:15, 19 April 2011 (UTC) [reply]

I've been labouring over this for some time now, prompted by my fascination with Herbert Read's novel The Green Child, which was inspired by this story of extra-terrestrial aliens who landed in 12th-century England. I've been helped immeasurably by Ealdgyth and Drmies, who both deserve credit for this effort, but any blame is down to me. Malleus Fatuorum 04:15, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image is cc-by-sa, no issues. Links are mostly fine, just one dab to Fuller. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:21, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

  • Why no date for Lawton in Footnotes?
  • Walsh 2000 or 2006?
  • Why include location for Briggs 1967 (note 3)?
  • Which Clark 2006 is which (footnotes 3 and 6)? Also, why is Cohen between the two Clark entries in the Bibliography?
  • Be consistent in whether you use the citation or the cite journal template for Bibliography entries
  • Why include publisher for Sewanee Review but not the other journals?
  • Publisher for Haughton?
  • Does Analog have volume or issue numbers?

Overall, looks like a great article. I'll likely come back later with a full review. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:21, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Reply. Thanks Nikkimaria; I think that all of these issues have been dealt with now. Malleus Fatuorum 11:54, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Great. I think the only thing is that Haughton still appears to have no publisher. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:26, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - A fascinating read. Utterly bizarre... but refreshing. Nice work. ceranthor 14:12, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments Interesting article, I'll resist the temptation of a Norfolk joke, and go straight to a few quibbles Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:48, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Village sign depicting the two green children — how do we know that the children on the sign are meant to be the greenies?
  • one of the wolf pits that gave the village its name. — there's a ref for this in the Woolpit article. Worth adding?
  • a land where the sun never shone, and the light was like twilight — link to Manchester?
  • Very funny! Actually it's a beautiful warm sunny day here, and it's been like summer for here some time now; can't remember the last time I saw rain. Malleus Fatuorum 16:20, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other theories include the suggestion that the children might have been aliens, or came from a world contained within the Earth. — I find it difficult to see in what sense these fantasy suggestions can be considered historical. Move to Folklore as modern examples? Change heading? I don't mind, I'm just not happy with these being given equal status with the theories that could be possible
  • I read it through and it looks very comprehensive to me. The story itself forms only a small part of the article; is absolutely everything about the children included? Also, I did a quick search of the internet to see if I could find images of the manuscripts which describe these events, and I was partially successful - although the text isn't legible to me so I don't know if the manuscripts scanned cover the story. Is it possible to find out, as an image of an old manuscript would certainly be of interest. Otherwise, support. Parrot of Doom 18:30, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • All that's known about the children comes from the rather short accounts written by Ralph and William, which isn't very much to be honest. Everyone else just re-hashes them, although Lunan's investigation into the fate of the green girl has been included. I'm not aware that there's anything else to say about the kids. Malleus Fatuorum 18:38, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I know that William of Newburgh's account is part of the British Museum's Harleian collection, manuscript number 3875, but I have no clout with the museum. Maybe someone who does could ask for a properly licensed image? Malleus Fatuorum 18:53, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I can certainly try. Thank you for your support, Parrot, and Malleus, thank you for the unintentional reminder that I needed to write up Harley Lyrics, if only as a stub. Drmies (talk) 19:53, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk) 23:40, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is a prose point rather than a substantive one. In "Between then and their rediscovery in the mid-19th century", when is "then"? I see that the Chronicum Anglicanum "begins at 1066, his own share at 1187".
  • I've added "written in about 1189 and 1220 respectively" to the end of the previous sentence, to give some context for the "then". Malleus Fatuorum 13:47, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but the boy was sickly and died": I'm not sure what the "but" is in opposition to ... unless he died before baptism, in which case I'd add "before the baptism" to the end of the sentence.
  • The boy died shortly after being baptised; I've hopefully clarified that in the text now. Malleus Fatuorum 15:21, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "St Martin's land": You capitalize "Land" in the lead.
  • "The Green Children resurface another story that William had been unable to tell, one in which English paninsular dominion ...": I'm not sure if we need a couple of [sic]'s here, or if the reader already won't be expecting modern English.
    • No, please don't "sic" that. "Resurface" is used as a transitive verb here, and I think Cohen is tenured enough that we should give him that license. I don't much like it either, but there it is. (And his analysis is actually the most cogent and insightful of them all--read it and you'll see!) [Drmies]
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 23:40, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support with yet more nitpicking and some queries. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Richard de Calne or Sir Richard de Calne?
  • "Scholars such as Nicholas Orme..." why source this to Oman instead of Orme himself?
  • "folk tale" or "folktale"?
  • "E. W. Baughman lists it as the only example of his category F103.1" - this should probably be explained a bit, given that we've no article on it. What is he categorising? This can be inferred from the title of his book, but it might help to give a few words here
  • Can the Picts, etc really be considered separate races? I've more often heard "ethnic groups" or "tribes" (as a non-UK resident, maybe it's seen differently there)
  • "genetically modified alien plants" - were these plants actually genetically manipulated, or are they simply different from our own (as is implied by "alien")?
  • "a stranger named Juxon buys the girl's freedom" - in the original story she was a servant, in this one is she a slave or indentured? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Replies
  • I've called him "Sir Richard de Calne" on first encounter and "Richard de Calne" elsewhere.
  • [Drmies:] Orme/Oman--well spotted, thank you very much. Correction made; the "Tales of mysterious lands reached through caverns" is in fact from Oman. Orme/Oman: Rome/Moan!
  • I've opted for "folk tale".
  • I've elaborated as "... his F103.1 category of English and North American folk tales".
  • [Drmies butting in on race:] Cohen uses "race" specifically, arguing that the term had a historical reality to the people employing the terminology (he denies that it has any biological meaning, BTW): "I believe that the word is appropriate to a medieval context, especially eleventh- and twelfth-century Britain, and not only because differences among the island's peoples were imagined as primal and enduring." Also, but this is even more nitpicky than your original question, "racial difference" (which is what the article currently says) doesn't necessarily mean different races. Having said that, "racial differences" might as well be changed to "peoples", which is kind of putting the card before the horse, but the term "peoples" is probably vague enough to not carry any of the connotations of "race," which are definitely there.
  • Yes, he suggests that the plants were genetically manipulated to suit the harsh conditions on the green children's home planet.
  • She's an indentured servant in Maxwell's verse play; I've clarified that now.
Malleus Fatuorum 15:50, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support: A fantastic article and incredibly interesting. I've read it a few times and can not really find anything wrong. Only one minor point:

  • "Brian Haughton considers Harris's plausible explanation to the one most widely accepted,[23] but not without its difficulties.": Unless I'm missing something (which is possible!), this doesn't make sense. Also, another "consider" follows in the next sentence. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for taking the time to have a look. The sentence makes perfect sense to me, but then of course it would, as I wrote it. I've changed the consider" in the following sentence to "suggests". Malleus Fatuorum 21:27, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • On reflection, perhaps changing the "but" to "although" might make it slightly clearer, which I'll do. Malleus Fatuorum 21:30, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sorry, I actually meant is the "to" after explanation supposed to be there, or should it have "be" after it. Or am I just completely misreading the sentence. If so, no problem! --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:29, 21 April 2011 (UTC) Just realised it has been changed anyway. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:32, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I love stumbling across things like this. One quick note to clear up (possibly my misunderstanding):

  • Under "Story", "...by the sound of bells eventually emerged into our land." The "our" seems a bit unclear. Is it the authour's opinion, or an acknowledgment that the children were from another world? Canada Hky (talk) 00:10, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's what Ralph of Coggeshall says; the sentence begins "Ralph says ...". Malleus Fatuorum 00:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • So it does. In the interests of clarity, might I suggest quotation marks? While the quote is attributed to Ralph, the cite is to a science fiction anthology (not doubting the source, just the possible misunderstandings of the word "our"). Canada Hky (talk) 03:07, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm reluctant. I've agonised similarly over the phrase "and the light was like twilight". Twilight where? Added to which Ralph's account was written in Latin, therefore it couldn't be attributed to him. Malleus Fatuorum 03:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair enough, its just rather jarring to have the informality in there. With a cite at the end, but no quotes, it very closely mimics the appearance of a fact. Canada Hky (talk) 01:59, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • But it's very clearly in the section headed "Story". We don't necessarily expect stories to be factual. Malleus Fatuorum 02:17, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • True, but any "Story" or "Plot" section should not make reference to "our" world. A reference to "Ralph's" or "his" world would be less ambiguous. Canada Hky (talk) 14:59, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't really see how using the phrase "Ralph's world" is in any way an improvement, as it implies that Ralph's world is in some way different from our own. The fact of the matter is that Ralph used a Latin phrase that has been translated as "our world land", evidently to distinguish it from the green world the children described. Malleus Fatuorum 15:39, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ralph's world is Ralph's world. Our world is our world, which includes modern readers, and I have my doubts that green children from another world visited my world at any point. The "our" includes way more than just Ralph. If the translation doesn't make sense, it needs to be explained. Canada Hky (talk) 17:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • What about putting "our land" in quotation marks? Drmies (talk) 17:40, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Attributed to whom? The sentence in which "our land " appears already begins "Ralph says ...", so the phrase is already attributed to him. Malleus Fatuorum 17:42, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It can be attributed in exactly the same way, just make it clear that when Ralph said "our world" (his world) he was expressing an opinion, as opposed to it being unclear, and possibly attributed to the science fiction anthology. Canada Hky (talk) 00:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not getting this, but perhaps it's just me being dense. The sentence in question is "Ralph says that they had become lost when they followed the cattle into a cave, and after being guided by the sound of bells eventually emerged into our land." In other words "Ralph says that they ... eventually emerged into our land". We already know that Ralph was a 12-century English monk, so when he says "our land" surely any reasonable person would assume that he meant England? Malleus Fatuorum 00:37, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've just noticed a continuing confusion here. The phrase used isn't "our world" but "our land". Malleus Fatuorum 00:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I keep saying "land" in my head and typing "world", which certainly isn't helping things. Its not that he meant England, I do not dispute that. Its that by saying "our land" in the story section, without the quotes, to me the placement of the cite implies that the other world ("their land") is a fact, rather than part of the story. Canada Hky (talk) 03:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one I'm afraid. Malleus Fatuorum 03:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting. I'm amazed that I've never heard of this.

  • "Sir Richard de Calne of Wykes" Presumably he's not worth a redlink, but perhaps the place is?
    • Hmmm--that's not as simple as it sounds: see Wykes.*
  • "Ralph says just the surviving girl" You're yet to mention (apart from in the lead) anything about the boy dying?
    • Valid point. I put a note in there, but MF may feel differently.*
      • I've moved a bit around, think it's OK now. Malleus Fatuorum 02:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes, well done.*
  • The subject isn't mentioned at all in Richard Barre, despite the fact the girl apparently married him?
    • Well, apparently--but see your comment below on the reliability of Lunan... Incidentally, MF and Ealdgyth are working on that article.*
  • "the green children are associated with the Babes in the Wood, who were left by their wicked uncle to die" The Babes in the Wood is the name of the story, and separate from the characters- for comparison, you would not say "Rowling wrote Harry Potter, who is a boy wizard". You'd say "Rowling wrote about Harry Potter, who is a boy wizard" or "Rowling wrote Harry Potter, which was about a boy wizard".
  • Maybe I'm missing something, but, surely, Lunan has something of a fringe view? Is he seriously suggesting this story is evidence for alien life? Perhaps mention the historical figures with that idea first?
    • True, true. Seriously fringe. I can't speak for MF, who organized those sections (not an easy job), but placing it at the end of the folklore section sort of indicates how serious this is to be taken. He does say it, and it was printed--MF's argument for including it in the article is that this prevents it from being slipped in as popular culture or trivia, and I agree.*

Lovely. Very well written, very interesting subject. J Milburn (talk) 20:46, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for your reading. Answers marked * by me, Drmies (talk) 02:10, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Thanks for your replies. Fascinating story, I really want to roleplay it now... J Milburn (talk) 16:33, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, perhaps the authors of this article could give Woolpit a quick clean? There is currently a rather badly referenced section on the children there... J Milburn (talk) 16:37, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is indeed poor, but what's worse is that it's been cut and pasted from here. Malleus Fatuorum 00:57, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've completely rewritten that section in the Woolpit article now. Malleus Fatuorum 16:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a few things as well; there's more to be found. Malleus, I found this, with a nice and far-fetched allegorical reading of the girl's marriage to "a man from Lynn". Drmies (talk) 04:26, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can't read that, but if you think it's important then stick it it in. Malleus Fatuorum 04:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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