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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Frank Zappa/archive2

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates‎ | Frank Zappa
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:31, 12 August 2008 [1].

Frank Zappa edit

Nominator(s): HJensen (talk)
previous FAC 2
previous FAC 1


  • Support. "Self-nomination". Well referenced article about an important American composer and musician. --HJensen, talk 10:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Responses. The specific image is under scrutiny, and is removed for now (I have contacted the photographer to make sure he has uploaded it to commons himself; but on his webpage, he links to wikipedia, so it would surprise me if he is being bluffed). The infobox now has a free image. The Vilnius picture has been removed from the commons. As for the audio smaples, I am sorry to have to ask for your help: Does one has to write a small description, apart from the source, in the captions? If you could point to an example it would be great! Thanks for your comments. --HJensen, talk 14:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Additional response. I have now provided commentary in the captions for all sound samples (either directly sourced, or indirectly referring to source in text). --HJensen, talk 19:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • It's got a {{NFimageoveruse}} template?
  • Perhaps use a template like {{Listen}} for the audio samples.
  • The boxes in "External links" can be made inline by using {{commons-inline}} so there isn't as much whitespace.
  • "by 17th century" – "th" should not be superscript
  • ""practical conservative."" – period goes outside the quote, WP:PUNC

Gary King (talk) 18:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Responses The {{NFimageoveruse}} was put there immediately after the nomination. I have since them removed one non-free image, and replaced one by a free alternative. Subsequently I removed the tag, while emphasizing in the edit summary that it could be inserted if the problem remained. The "Listen" template is being used. The rest of your comments have been addressed. Thanks a lot! --HJensen, talk 11:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Addition. Another fair-use image has been replaced by a free image. --HJensen, talk 14:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Further response. The sound samples are now presented using {{multi-listen item}} as that gives better space around the box, as well as appears more suitable when having cites in the descriptions.--HJensen, talk 20:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - It is a very well written article.

  • There seem to be problems with the format for referencing per WP:LAYOUT; there should be a separate Notes and Reference section I believe, and a consistent reference citation format.
  • I don't thing you can justify the use of so many non free images.

—Mattisse (Talk) 19:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Responses. I have followed WP:CITE and made a seperate "References" section for the most used sources. Then, the notes only contain a short reference to the source. Previously, I followed the convention of writing out the source in full the first time it was used, and thereafter "only" in brief form - I could no longer find such practice recommended in any policies. In any case the new form is far superior. About images, I have removed one no-free image, and replaced one by a free alternative. Another editor has also put a free inmage into the infobox, as the previous image's license is under closer scrutiny (it could be suspected as non free as Giggy notes above). Thanks for your efforts! --HJensen, talk 12:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Addition. Another fair-use image has been replaced by a free image. --HJensen, talk 14:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

strong oppose - Excessive and deorative non-free image Fasach Nua (talk) 07:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain how they are decorative or excessive. —Giggy 11:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reponse. Since your writing, two fair-use images have been replaced by free images and one has been removed. --HJensen, talk 14:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
till oppose, there has been a slight improvement, however, Image:Studio Z.jpg, Image:MothersBBC1968b.jpg and Image:Image:ZappaVPRO1971a.jpg all fail WP:NFCC#8, and thus the article fails FA criteria #3 Fasach Nua (talk) 10:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How? They don't fail it in my opinion. —Giggy 10:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding of the topic is not impacted by the use of the non-free images, therefore they fail WP:NFCC#8 Fasach Nua (talk) 12:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment There seems to be three disambiguation problems which will need fixing: Ray Collins, Tom Fowler and Wazoo.

  • You also need three non-breaking spaces in this sentence in this sentence: “If he could take the forms and clichés of the classical era and pervert them, why not do the same...to doo-wop in the fifties?” Another is needed in "transferred to 35mm film."
  • You also use the word 'hadn't' instead of had not in the sentence "one was that he felt the band hadn't given him value for his money" - although it doesn't appear to be inside a quote.
  • More nbsps needed in this sentence: “With the Synclavier, any group of imaginary instruments can be invited to play the most difficult passages... with one-millisecond accurary."
  • According to a semi-automated Peer Review, the lead is also rather long and there is a mixture of both American and British spellings, when one style should be chosen.

-- Seahamlass 11:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Responses. The non-breaking spaces are now used; except for "35 mm" as I wikilinked that (so "just" an normal space is used). The spelling is sought to be American, and the lead has been revised slightly. As for the three disambiguation problems mentioned, I am in doubt as to what should be done. All three links to the correct article. Should they link to the disambiuation page? Thanks a lot for the comments! --HJensen, talk 14:06, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Well written, well referenced article with a lot of coverage on its subject. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 11:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC))[reply]
note - This editor has made the third highest nummber of contributions to this article [2] Fasach Nua (talk) 12:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — I didn't write any of the article. Instances in which I corrected the spelling, changed the formatting or fixed any other minor problem shouldn't count. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 21:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC))[reply]
note to note True. But with all due respect, he has not contributed much to the article in the recent half year where the article was substantially rewritten and brought to GA status.--HJensen, talk 13:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Issues resolved. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 14:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

  • I think readers will be overwhelmed by the amount of text. Please consider adding some sub-sections into the main headers to break up the content and make this easier to read.
  • No personal life section? I only see childhood and career sections.
  • "1980s: Productive as ever and enter the Synclavier" - Productive as enter? Can we be more formal, at least?
  • Your citations could be more consistent. You have "Miles, Barry (2004). Frank Zappa. London: Atlantic Books, p. 345; p. 56. ISBN 1 84354 092 4.", but later you put the year between commas instead of brackets, for example.

— Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 21:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC) Oppose - 1a, 1b and 1c concerns. It is a requirement that all sources be reliable and verifiable. The main book used is Miles, Barry (2004). Frank Zappa. London: Atlantic Books. ISBN 1-843-54092-4. I looked up this title, and came across some quite negative reviews, discovering comments from readers such as "Having just finished reading this book, it seems to me that Mr. Barry Miles, the author, really doesn't like Frank Zappa all that much.". These sorts of comments indicate that the book has a certain point of view, which has most likely been carried through to this article's context. I then came across another reader review, which said: "For someone who was a member of the Zappa clique (however briefly), Mr Miles seems surpisingly misinformed as to Zappa's artistic motives/intentions.". Are you sure this is the best book on Frank Zappa? I'm not entirely confident it is. I haven't read the book, and I have not scanned the article for any POV, but I think a better book could have been used. If this is going to be FA, you need to use the best sources available. I'm also unsure the prose is of a professional standard. I saw "Sixties" instead of 1960s, and other oddities throughout the article. For example, "Zappa kept composing music for symphony orchestra while playing and recording with the Mothers of Invention." - "kept" doesn't sound good here, "continued to compose music" would sound better. "Later in 1970, Zappa put together a new version of The Mothers " - "put together" is not professional, and sounds too informal. "This lineup debuted on Zappa's next solo album Chunga's Revenge (1970)," - You have started a new paragraph with "This lineup" - What lineup? There should not be a paragraph break when you are telling the reader something - that simply confuses readers and ruins flow. As I mentioned above in my initial comments, "1980s: Productive as ever and enter the Synclavier" terrible section title. "Productive as enter?" Can we be more formal, at least? And lastly, I was surprised to see the omission of a 'personal life' section. Is this article not complete? This article seems to focus on early life, education and then his career. It does not cover as much about Frank Zappa as it should. Readers don't want to know the specifics of his music, they want to know about the man himself. Things like "The albums were subsequently released as a 3-album box set, and were in 1988 followed by the album Guitar focusing on recordings from 1981-82 and 1984." can probably be edited out without harming the comprehensiveness. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 14:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Responses
* The Miles book is hated by many fans since it dares to be critical about Zappa, and not just hailing him as a genious (so that is probably what you pick up on the net - Zappa fans are very touchy :-) ). Therefore, the article is best referenced with a mix of that book (which is written by a notable author), as well as Zappa's own book as the two major references (along with a number of other respected books that are mostly positive towards Zappa). Otherwise, one would get a POV article. So the usage of Miles is a very good guard against unnecessary fan-based POV about Zappa. Funny that the article should be suspected to have an anti-Zappa bias. I had feared the opposite. :-)
* Ok, the title of that section may be too flashy. It has been amended. (The other edit suggestions has been incorporated also.)
* I have written on the lack of a personal section on the talk page previously (bottom line: Most is intertwined with the career material, as his life was his career). I don't think it is needed, and I did not know it was FA requirement. More importantly, I don't have that much reliable, if any, verifiable information about "the man" (after all, he was a composer, so his music must be of most importance?). Only urban legends, which I guess is not appropriate here. If you have some, please let me know. Cheers! --HJensen, talk 14:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Withdrawing my Oppose, this is looking better. It could still do with a copyedit by someone new to the text, though. I recommend you ask for help at WP:PRV. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 14:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot. I may note that over the past few days, User:Mattisse has been/is giving the article a really thorough copyedit, having already made numerous constructive edits.--HJensen, talk 16:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 13:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Responses. I have taken care of all your suggestions (used citations template consistently, removed links to potential copyvio sites, removed links to non-notable sites, added publisher when needed, and other more "techincal stuff"). Remaining questions are whether http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/index.html and http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/vinylvscds/index.html are reliable sources? I would say definitely yes, as they are long-standing, stable sites providing meticolous information about release details of Zappa records. It could talk in favor of the seriousness sites that they are used as primary sources, e.g., in the book Lowe, Kelly Fisher (2006). The Words and Music of Frank Zappa. Westport: Praeger Publishers. ISBN 0-275-98779-5. (Chapter 5, note 1; and the first site gets special mention on page 240 in a Biblipographic Essay). As for http://mixonline.com/, it is my belief that it is a respected outlet on music production issues. Thanks for your input! --HJensen, talk 10:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting Responses The two sites globalia.net and lukpac.org are as reliable as this stuff can get for anyone interested in exploring Zappa's work. mixonline.com is the website for Mix magazine a trade journal which is... "Distributed in 94 countries, Mix is the world's leading magazine for the professional recording and sound production technology industry". Their archive of articles is a trusted and reliable source of material. Lame Name (talk) 13:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Totally agree with Lame Name, Mix is a well-known trade journal in the music community. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 14:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose until there are sections detailing his musical style, influences and legacy in detail. While the article seems to cover his life well enough, a critical discussion of his music needs to be discussed to satisfy the comprehensiveness clause of WP:FA? (see John Frusciante among other music bio FAs). Given that his style is so unique and radically different from popular music, I'm sure plenty of scholarly sources discuss the evolution of his musical style.

I suggest withdrawal for now because I presume the sections will be quite large and then need to be copy-edited and all that; significant text-addition shouldn't be done during FAC. indopug (talk) 04:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good point. It might be good to look at the Michael Jackson article which recently became an FA. It has a section called 'Music styles' and 'Legacy and influence', both outside of the main Biography section, so it's a very good model article. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 05:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
These are comments that are a bit detrimetal on work moral. I and a few other editors have been working hard since July 22 on responding to other comments. A lot of that work would become obsolete if the format should be that of the Michael Jackon article. I am just saying that it would have been nice to have received these comments a while ago. (Frank Zappa's musical influences is, by the way, already presented in an early section. His musical style is continuosly mentioned along with his releases to avoid repetition.)--HJensen, talk 10:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since the information that could be in a music styles section is scattered throughout the Biography, you could reshuffle the information and move those parts into a 'Music styles' section without much work needed. I understand what you're saying about not being told sooner, but this has never had a peer review, which is the best way to get comments before GA/FA. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 10:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Too bad that is mentioned now after so much effort has been made to relate Zappa's music to his life (after input from others on talk page) and the successful (from my point of view) resistance to having a Personal life section. Zappa is his artistic output in a way Jackson is not with Jackson's celebrity life so dominant. As a mainstrean artist, Michael Jackson's relationship to his music seems so simplified compared to Zappa, and Jackson was not as "hands on" and was not juggling band members, symphony directors, publishing, writing, composing, producing, creation of cutting-edge recording technologies, films (and much more) to the degree Zappa was. Plus Michael Jackson was strictly mainstream, as was his "legacy", so such article divisions as suggested are easily made in Jackson's case. Not so with Zappa who does not flow easily into any musical tradition, and does not have a mainstream "legacy". I will be sorry to see the article carved up to fulfill the above request. I disagree with Wackymacs tht it can be done easily. I may be wrong but I think it will require a complete rewrite of the article from the ground up. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying this is necessary for this to become an FA. As it stands, the article seems to meet the criteria. But it does seem like a good idea to have a 'Music styles' section, but it seems this will be controversial. If what you've said is true, then maybe Indopug's Objection is non-actionable if a full rewrite would be required after so much work has gone into the article? — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 15:15, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am obviously biased here, but I agree fully with Mattisse that it is very diffcult to make a particular "musical style" section for Zappa. It would in my opinion call for a new article. His musical styles are so wide ranging that descriptions of them fits best alongside with the description of his output and career. Everything fits together, so taking musical descriptions out and into an independent section would leave the career description void of meaning. (It appears much easier to make such a division in the mentioned case of John Frusciante as he, with all respect (I am a fan), has a style for the guitar and that's it. Then he has a career with RHCP and some remarkable personal facts that can be told completely independent of musical style.) The only subject that fits into an independent section in case of Zappa, is his musical influences, as they appeared quite "stable" through his time (R&B and Varese/Stravinsky). These influences are already in an independent section (merged with his childhood as the influences came into effect during his youth). This is a section that Indopug may have overlooked. --HJensen, talk 16:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not impossible to summarize Zappa's musical style and lyrical themes. Until this are fully addressed, the article is not comprehensive. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not impossible but it is a separate article's worth of work. We are not talking Joy Division (nice article by the way) and their four year career. We are talking about someone who had a prolific output over numerous genres for decades. No single article is going to be able to do justice to the range of his works. As a general introduction to Frank Zappa, who he was and what he did, this is a comprehensive and accurate article. Today, 15 years after his death, people are still analysing what he did, how his "conceptual continuity" tied strands of his work together. There are several more articles to be written about his works but to include more detail, or analysis, of them in this article would overload it with unnecessary detail. Lame Name (talk) 13:54, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The comparison with John Frusciante is particularly unfortunate, in my opinion. If you compare the templates at the bottom of their respective pages, you can glimpse the difference. You are comparing an artist who played multiple instruments, who used innovative studio pre-sampling techniques to create cuts that combined multiple unrelated recorded and live performances (at a time when this was not being done), who produced and released over 60 albums including solo work, who recorded and performed with an ever changing array of musicians, who composed in a wide range of styles, whose music was performed by symphony orchestras and rock bands, whose performances were equally individualistic (he played a bicycle on the Steve Allen show), who testified before congress and was a cultural ambassador to Czechoslovakia as a result of his musical impact—all this with an admittedly great guitarist but who is 30 years younger with a much smaller and more contained body of work on one musical instrument and whose drug problems take up a large part of his article. I hope that FAC is flexible enough not to shoehorn Zappa into a John Frusciante format. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:21, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not asking for any pigeon-holing into a "Frusciante format", that article was merely the first that came to mind. Just like how a biography of an author has a literary style section, musicians' (individuals and bands) articles need a section that exclusively describes (the style and evolution of) their music. Check any reasonably recent musician/band FA. If there is enough material to fill many articles, just a 2-3 paragraph overview would do here. The article also needs an Influences/Legacy section which discusses Zappa's impact on music; did he influence any artists? How do critics/the media view him today? indopug (talk) 15:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not following you. John Frusciante has a section on the influences on him but no section on his "Legacy" nor who he influenced. Going by Frusciante's article, he had little influence. Why the influences on Zappa's style (if the word "style" can even be so neatly applied to him) cannot be needly boxed in a section, as for Frusciante, has been explained above. Since the article on Zappa is already longer than Frusciante's, the article would have to be completely rewritten and reorganized to accommodate your request. Maybe a long section on his illnesses and his prostate cancer also, similar to Frusciante format with its large chunk devoted to drug problems, is needed to conform. The editor of the Zappa article has chosen to focus almost entirely on his musical development, leaving out medical issues and such, and I support that choice. I think the article is far more articulate the way it is written now. —Mattisse (Talk) 16:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
John Frusciante hasn't had much of a legacy, thus there's no section devoted to it. It would be a much mroe effective use of summary style of you put things like Zappa's influences and long details on his musical techniques into a separate section. See Joy Division, Radiohead, and R.E.M. for examples. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again I am not following you. Zappa was not a rock band, nor mainly a member of one. He was not mainly a rock guitarist, although rated highly as such by the Rolling Stone magazine. He worked, according to Rolling Stone "with a bewildering array of talents" and not a particular band. To force this article on him into such a format can not be done, in my opinion, as it would require the elimination of most of the material and a complete rewrite into a narrow format that would ignore much of his work. You are comparing his article with those of subjects with a much narrower and restricted focus. You must read the article to try to understand, I think. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:06, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm basically saying the section is a mess in this article and it needs to be rearranged to be clearer. For example, there shouldn't be such a brief section devoted to television appearances in the 80s. It's not impossible. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I didn't write the article and knew little about Zappa until I read it. However, the examples you give of rock bands above are just not appropriate. Perhaps if you provided examples of articles more applicable to Zappa, it would be helpful. It's like the example that someone else gave that the article should follow above, it just doesn't relate, in my opinion. Could you provide an example to follow of a player/composer/social critic whose work was independent of a particular band, and who was not affiliated with a particular musical genre? —Mattisse (Talk) 01:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that the article should be better organized. Right now it's straight biography, through and through, when all sorts of musican biograpies have various subsection where appropriate for readability and context. Many details of Zappa's music would work better under a general "Musical style and influences" section rather than in the middle of his bio. John Mayer, John Frusciante, and Janet Jackson have very different subsections, but all are appropriate for each artist. It wouldn't hurt to try rearranging the article. It could alway be reverted to an earlier version. But the nominator of this article must at least try to address this. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I cannot address this within the scope of this nomination. It would become a whole new project. I find it very difficult to envisage an article with the sort of sub-sections proposed. I acknowdledge that your examples show that different performers need different subsections (unlike John Mayer, e.g., Zappa did not to my knowledge have a lot of tatoos and/or made peculiar official statements abot his love life in order to rationalize an indepedent Personal Life section). In case of Zappa, his muscial styles and influences are best told in relation with the evolution of his career. I may be reading my sources to often, because that is the way all sources tackle his story. But in any case, my point is that with Zappa, the appropriate thing may actually be to have no such sub sections.--HJensen, talk 05:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I still do not get your point. John Frusciante you personally discounted above as inapplicable because of the lack of legacy; John Mayer was restricted to a fairly narrow range in genres and also depended on being affiliated with bands, and although I feel that Janet Jackson is a fine performer, in Zappa we are dealing with a talent of far broader proportions: player/composer in classical as well as pop, rock, or whatever/social critic and spokesperson, a performer/composer not affiliated with a particular band. And a winner of many awards that do not restrict him to a narrow category. —Mattisse (Talk) 02:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I thought I'd wait a while until supporting to see what others came up with. I'm pleased with the way the article looks. The writing quality is professional and so is the referencing. What the writers have managed to do is summarize Zappa's life with a neutral tone without leaving out any major bits of information. As it stands, the article does include plenty of information on Zappa's influences, legacy and music styles—those who say it is missing information on Zappa's musical style and lyrical themes have not fully read the article. Definitely meets the criteria and covers all the bases. Well done to the article's writers! — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 18:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment
    • "While little was known at the time about the potential dangers of being subjected to radiation, Zappa's childhood illnesses peaked when he lived in the Baltimore area." - I find this sentence difficult to understand. Is it suggesting that the radium pellets worsened his illness? Epbr123 (talk) 22:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would support the removal of this sentence, based on my knowledge that any dangerous effects were long term and not immediate. I could (sigh) probably find evidence to support my position. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have re-read the sources and reformulated the sentence. Previously, it read generally that dangers of radiation and living in a toxic environment had unknown effects. The sources emphasize that it was the close proximity to mustard gas that could be the culprit. Indeed, asthma and sinus problmes are diseases that may be triggered by mustard gas. So I have emphasized that part (at some point in the process the gas went out of the article in this part about his health), such as to convey that it is likely (according to sources) that these diseases arose from mustard gas as Zappa's health got better everytime his family leaved Baltimore.--HJensen, talk 07:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - This is one of the longest biographies I've ever seen on Wikipedia. While it appears well-written, informative, and even entertaining, I think it might just be too long. If you could start splitting it up into smaller articles, then I'd put it much closer to FA status. Something like Leonardo da Vinci, where some sections are preceded by a sub-header, such as "Main article: Cultural depictions of Leonardo da Vinci," which elaborates on the brief in the main article. I don't think this diminishes the subject in any way. It's extraordinary that this much information has been compiled, but now it needs to be presented in a way that's accessible to both vets and newcomers. --Yano (talk) 00:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is long by rock musician standards, but at Prose size (text only): 48 kB (7958 words) "readable prose size", it is not long by biographical standards. Compare to Bob Dylan at Prose size (text only): 77 kB (13059 words) "readable prose size" - which is an FA. And most comments by editors (see above) are suggesting adding more to the article. Zappa is not the typical "rock musician". So the aricle on his life and work is not going to be typical. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yano's point was "it needs to be presented in a way that's accessible to both vets and newcomers". Size itself is not a problem, but level of detail may be too much, which is a perfectly reasonable remark. Consider that some material in the prose might best be suited for subarticles (ie. album and song pages). WesleyDodds (talk) 04:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I have a disclaimer in that I contributed to copy editing the article but not to article content. I knew very little about Zappa until I started reading this article and became fascinated. Over the last few weeks I have watched the main editor accommodate requests both here and on the talk page with good humor and a collaborative spirit. Zappa in no way resembles the musicians and bands brought up on this page as examples of how the article should be presented. I believe this article presents a large amount of information about a difficult subject in a well organized, engaging style. —Mattisse (Talk) 22:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  • Although I realise that this statement is sourced – "A doctor treated the latter by inserting a pellet of radium on a probe into each of Zappa's nostrils—little was known at the time about the potential dangers of being subjected to radiation" – I find it highly improbable. See Radium Girls, for instance.
  • "... she was indulgent enough to award Zappa a long distance call to the composer as a 15th birthday present." Awarding a birthday present doesn't seem very idiomatic.
  • "... Zappa spoke to the composer's wife. Zappa later received a letter from Varèse thanking Zappa for his interest ..." There are too many Zappas in and around this area.
  • "At that time, only a handful of the most expensive commercial studios had multi-track facilities". Not clear what "expensive" means in this context. Expensively equipped? Expensive to hire? Something else?
  • "With Captain Beefheart, Zappa recorded some songs as 'The Soots'." Why is the band name in quotes? Similarly, "The Soul Giants" appears in quotes later.
  • "Zappa was approached by an undercover cop of the Vice Squad ...". Of the Vice Squad doesn't sound right.
  • "Eventually, he could no longer afford to pay the rent on the studio and was evicted, as a real estate development plan involved a widening of the road." This doesn't seem to hang together. Was he evicted because he couldn't pay the rent, or because of the road-widening scheme?
  • "... over with what toys the Zappa children played." Is this an Americanism, or a reluctance to end the sentence with "with"?
  • "... provided animation sequences for Zappa to a 1974 TV special ...". For a 1974 television special?
  • "While Zappa had always been sexually explicit, his continued insistence on being so fared negatively with some critics." Awkward phrasing.
  • "Zappa's current touring band, with the additions of Ruth Underwood ...". Obviously, Zappa doesn't have a current touring band
  • "... an out-of-court settlement with the MGM ...". Why the MGM?
  • "... a 20-piece big band referred to as the Grand Wazoo. After the Grand Wazoo dissolved, Zappa formed a scaled-down unit known as the 'Petit Wazoo' that toured the U.S. for five weeks". Again, why the inconsistency in the use of quotation marks?
  • "... adopted the stage monikers ...". Monikers doesn't sound like sufficiently formal language.
  • "... they arranged a concert in which Mehta conducted the Los Angeles Philharmonic amended with a rock band ...". How do you amend a philharmonic orchestra?
  • I think that the discussion of musical styles is well dealt with throughout the article, but I don't think that his legacy is dealt with so well, or even at all.
  • "Zappa and a female friend jokingly faked an erotic recording". Who says it was a joke? Jokingly need a citation.
  • There are quite a few places where the text doesn't quite read right to me (I've given some examples above), and I think it really needs someone to go through the whole thing again before it meets the professional prose criteria.
  • The Other TV appearances section is too short to stand alone.
  • Some of the section titles, such as "Zappa as independent artist: more successes", seem to be displayimg a pov. Needs to be neutralised just a tad; "Zappa as an independent artist".
  • "Many of Zappa's diseases were symptoms of exposure to mustard gas". I find that very difficult to believe.

--Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 16:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Initial response Thanks a lot for your suggestions. I'll look into them tomorrow; cannot today, unfortunately.--HJensen, talk 17:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Detailed response. All of your comments and suggestions have been addressed by Mattisse. Thanks a lot! There are two issues you raise, however, that I will address. 1) Your reluctance to believe in the radium-based treatment given to the young Zappa. I find it very hard to believe myself, but it is backed up by references, so I would hate to let it go, as it is an important part of his childhood. 2) You also find it hard to believe that many of his diseases are related to mustard gas. Here, it is probably an instance of bad writing of my behalf. My understanding of the source is that many of Zappa's diseases are some that would arise from being subject to mustard gas. Maybe I wrote it as it was a fact that he was sick because of the gas. I have rephrased it to, hopefully, convey that it is a possibility that his proximity to mustard gas could have caused his illnesses, and that the illnesses disappear when the family relocates. I quote the text from Miles (2004, Frank Zappa) here so you can judge whether I have misunderstood (the quote also covers the radium treatment):
"His sinus problems were treated by an Italian doctor using the latest technology: pellets of radium which he inserted into Frank's sinus cavities on both sides with the aid of a long wire. The dangers of long-term exposure to low-grade radiation were unknown at the time.
Asthma, recurrent flu, earaches and sinus trouble are all symptoms of exposure to nitrogen or sulphur mustard gas. The fact that these ailments disappeared when the family moved to Florida and recurred when they returned to Maryland suggests that Zappa's childhood illnesses were caused by living in a toxic environment. The toxicity of the Edgewood home was increased by a big bag of DDT powder that Zappa's father brought home from the lab to kill bugs. This, he maintained, was so safe you could eat it."
Finally, whether the Other TV appearances section is too short to stand alone, I am a bit in doubt. Another editor, at the Zappa talk page, asked for its inclusion, so I am a bit reluctant to merge it into the text. But if you insist, I will obviously give it a try.
Thanks again! --HJensen, talk 23:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
MUSTARD GAS - I feel all too much is being made of this. As I have confessed, my brother got the pellets up his nose also in Baltimore within the same time frame. The fact is, even today, all that much is not known about what triggers allergies. The important point is that Zappa thought that mustard gas and/or pellets up his nose was the problem and that belief influenced his work later. Reality is something else. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose—Sorry to be late. Fresh eyes over the whole text are necessary to polish this prose. For a great figure, we need stirling prose. Here are examples just from the top.

  • "was an American composer, musician, and film director"—category leakage: a composer is a musician. You mean "performer". Why link "American", for heck's sake? Don't particularly like the repetition in the next sentence (it might work merged). Did he take the entire 30 years to establish himself?
Response - A composer is "one who writes music" and is not necessarily a musician. Iving Berlin was a composer but was not a musician. —Mattisse (Talk) 14:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Agreed. But I did not want to pick on it, so I changed "musician" in the lead to "electric guitarist" as that was Zappa's main instrument, and thereby definitely avoids any "category leakage". --HJensen, talk 16:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He worked in various musical genres and wrote music for rock bands, jazz ensembles, synthesizers, symphony orchestra and created musique concrète works. In addition to his music he created short and ...". The first clause is overshadowed by the second; the "and" suggests that we might get new information, not a restatement in slightly greater detail. Comma fairy needs to audit the article: one after "music", which ends an opening prepositional phrase. The longer the sentence, the more likely the use of optional commas.
  • He'd find "productive" a big put-down. Remove it?
  • Try "his own music and that of others", which is more elegant.
  • ", although there were few major ...". Easier.
  • Nerds like me need to be told that "Mothers of Invention" was a band (is that right?).
  • "Multiple"—oh, ugly and vague. How many Gr. awards, please? Provide precise info for our readers.
  • It's no big deal, but most editors abbreviate the name of the country from the start or after first mention: "the US National Recording Preservation Board". Use the dots if you really like them.
  • Comma after "2007", I'm afraid; can't think of how to avoid it.
  • Para 3 lovely.
  • Sounds like his wife lived for four years. Integrate the years of marriage into the sentence; the grammatical treatment of the children issue is inconsistent. Recast.
Additional comment. I forgot to mention in my overall response, that I did not change the way the children are presented. I'll have to ask you for the specifics of the inconsistency; sorry. --HJensen, talk 16:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove comma after "trust". Pity it has to be repeated seven words later.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony1 (talk • contribs) 00:05, August 10, 2008

Response. Too bad. Well, better late that never! :-) I have incorporated all your suggestions for the lead, except "the multiple Grammy nominations". I am deperately trying to find the exact number right now. I had hoped that the editors who have gracefully stepped in and extensively copyedited (especially Mattisse) had brought sufficient fresh eyes to the article. But I know that one can always improve; that is the fun of wiki - my fingers scratch when I see even FA articles, where I constantly find oddities. But we'll keep on working on some of the other editor's comments. Cheers! --HJensen, talk 13:54, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resonse 2 - Many performers receive multiple Grammy nominations - some for a span of years in a row; I do not think this request for an exact count is a reasonable one. —Mattisse (Talk) 13:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • A couple of strange MoS issues. Dates are delinked and in international style in the citations, but linked and in US style in the text. Considering Zappa was from the US, it's unclear why the citation date style would switch to international, and considering the delinking of dates in the citations, it's unclear why dates are linked in the article. For samples of how to delink dates consistently, see Ima Hogg (using cite xxx) or Samuel Johnson using citation and international format; pls choose one method and be consistent. Also, see WP:CITE; the citation style needs to be sorted throughout, it currently mixes {{citation}} with the cite xxx templates. Ealdgyth brought that up on the July 23, but the issue is still present. Also, the punctuation on image captions (full sentences vs. fragments) needs attention per WP:MOS#Images, and the issue images need resolution. Some elbow grease still needed. Also, several of the images are looking off the page, away from the text: see WP:MOS#Images. The citations themselves also need work; things like publishers not correctly identified and parameters used incorrectly, another thing that needs elbow grease and extra eyes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:54, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Responses. Thanks for your comments! I greased up my elbows and gave it a go:
* I have now imposed the US style of pesentíng dates, as well as de-linking all.
* I have not a single "non citation" template left. I had previously retained "cite video" and "cite books", and as Ealdgyth on July 25 deemed his issues resolved, I forgot all about it in the past couple of weeks. Sorry about that. I think it should be o.k. now. I encountered the problem that the citation template to my knowledge does not allow for US date showings (only the cite template can, when amended as done in Ima Hogg). I solved the thing by "brute force" by entering the dates manually. I hope that is o.k. Finally, I hope the references are up to par now; otherwise, please let me know where they are incomplete.
* As for the image captions, I hope to have fulfillled the MOS now.
* As for the image placement(s), I guess it is very browser dependent. But I use standard templates, and they look well placed to me in IE and Firefox.
* About the image usage, I have been very much in doubt. One user opposes the article for use of non-free fair use articles. I have spent some time replacing two with free alternatives and removed one. That leaves three fair-use images. This reduction of 50% was labelled a "slight improvement" but another editor still questioned the initial arguments. I have no stand on this other than I think the three fair-use images do great justice to the article (and I think the number of images are fine for considering the article's elngth). I see from other discussions on FACs that this is an on-going issue among some of the editors also commenting here, so I will let it be up to your discretion.
--HJensen, talk 13:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Another one of the reasons I avoid using the silly {{citation}} template; I left a talk message at {{citation}}. I left a sample of a missing publisher in edit summary. Eyes in the image looking off the page isn't browser dependent; it happens that most of your Zappa images have him looking to the page left, so they are better placed on page right. Variety can be achieved by juggling the sounds to the left. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again! I see I completely misunderstood your image issue (I thought you meant the images themselves were tipping out rightwards.... insert blushing face). I get it know! Thanks a lot for your edits. I'll go over all cites again. There, I also misunderstood you, and looked only at the reference list (the books). My bad. I'll put some more grease on and fix the remaining cites. (As well as doing one final thing to accommodate many of the comments above: include a brief section on Zappa's legacy. I haven't had time as other comments tend to come lumping in at the most "inconvenient" times. But as I said to Tony1 above, better have negative comments than no comments at all, so I am definitely not complaining). --HJensen, talk 15:46, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have gone through all citations, and believe they are complete now (I also found a few minor things like missing italics). Thanks again! --HJensen, talk 23:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Early in this FAC there was a discussion of adding a section on musical style, influences, and legacy. A solid case was made for not having a separate section on musical style. However the issue of his musical legacy was almost completely ignored as it almost completely is by the article itself. The article describes the critical reception of some of his music in a few places, but I can't find anything about his impact on the work of other musicians or on society in general. I thought the cultural referneces article might help but it is pretty thin. Surely a figure as important as Frank Zappa had a bigger influence on the development of rock music than just being mentioned in one line of a famous Deep Purple song? For example "Weird Al" Yankovic says that Zappa was an influence and I am sure there must be many more. Rusty Cashman (talk) 00:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response. I am drafting up a legacy section as of now. Hope you will like it. --HJensen, talk 08:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, I'm afraid. This article is much improved since its last time up, and credit to the authors for their work on it. But it's not at the finished point just yet. It wants a section on Zappa's legacy, as others have noted - without this it's not comprehensive. Really good articles should also be succinct. Some of the prose here is somewhat bloated, and there's rather too many irrelevant details thrown into it in places. Here are some specific points, which you should feel free to disagree with.

  • The fact that his family lived near a mustard gas factory seems to sprawl across three paragraphs. Is this detail really so profoundly important as that?
  • There's too many unnecessary subordinate clauses causing fairly trivial sentences to become tediously inflated, eg. 'At about the same time his parents bought a record player, which allowed him to develop his interest in music, and to begin building his record collection. R&B singles were early purchases, starting a large collection he kept for the rest of his life.' Why not just 'At about the same time he started collecting records, particularly R&B singles.'
  • Why the emphasis on Zappa's politics? A whole paragraph in the lead seems a lot given that he's not primarily known for his political views. And a whole section on the PMRC hearing? The large quote of Zappa sticking it to the moms doesn't seem particularly essential to a discussion of his entire life and work.
  • I'd've thought what Zappa is known for, on the other hand, and rightly or wrongly, are his more juvenile lyrics - nob jokes, etc. Certainly this is a common charge from critics, and after all why was he so opposed to censorship if not because his music was particularly affected by it? There doesn't seem to be any proper discussion of such japery. And no mention in the lead. (I think there's still a good argument for a separate section treating his lyrics. Given the whole "conceptual continuity" thing, it seems like a discussion of his entire work might be useful, at least as a complement to the piecemeal 'his work is his life' approach we've currently got.)
  • There's a fair bit of padding that could be moved elsewhere. Much of the stuff specific to indivual records - particular themes, song structures, changes in band line-ups, etc. - might be better shifed to the corresponding album article. ""The Black Page" ... , is notorious for its complexity in rhythmic structure, featuring radical changes of tempo and meter as well as short, densely arranged passages." - OK, but why does this piece get special mention here?
  • There's also some rather creative use of quotation marks going on. '... they highlight Zappa's improvisational skills with "beautiful performances from the backing group as well"' It's not really cricket to turn opinions into facts by paraphrasing like this.

I hope I'm not being hypercritical in these points because in general the article does a solid job distilling a shitload of information. I'd consider taking the article to peer review before bringing it round again. Flowerparty☀ 08:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Let us agree to disagree :-) Most of your comments are concerning the presentation and choice of focus, and are as such not actionable right now, unfortunately. I would add that most would think of it as quite wrong if Zappa as a political figure was not emphasized. His stance against censorship is in the lead, and was a life-long passion that did not occur because he was particularly affected by it—he was not. About a legacy section: So many editors have requested this, so it has to be WP:consensus by now. I, of course, won't go against that, so I am in the process of drafting a section on that. Finally, I have to say that I do not like your statement on "rather creative use of quotation marks going on ...It's not really cricket to turn opinions into facts by paraphrasing like this". Every piece of text in quotation marks are of course found the the corresponding citation. No attempts are made to turn opinions into facts. Are you instead suggesting that there is a WP:MOS issue here? In that case, I am very sorry if I have misread you remark. Thanks for your inputs! --HJensen, talk 08:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I meant there's no mention in the lead of his lyrical themes. There should be, given that this is the bit people are most likely to read. Zappa's lead currently gives a better summary of his politics than most politicians' articles do, so you could be forgiven for thinking he only wrote about politics. The lead hasn't been much altered over the last year, I notice, which means it doesn't really do justice to the rest of the article. Most of the second paragraph is a bit too specific for the lead too - I don't see how his placing #71 in a Rolling Stone poll in 2005 is one of the most important facts you could need to know about Zappa. Or even the grammy nominations, come to that. Perhaps some of that stuff could be moved to the legacy section. And yes, I don't mean to accuse anyone of playing fast and loose with citations, I just meant to point out that sentences like that one about the beautiful backing group performances read like fact rather than opinion - just wrapping the quoted text in speech marks doesn't clearly detach the writer's view from the view of the article, which of course must be neutral. Sorry for the confusion. I don't generally go in for MOS dogmatism but the attribution part here seems to apply (I know technically that says it only applies to full sentences, but I think the spirit of the thing is that views should be clearly attributed within the text - you shouldn't have to scroll down the page to find out who said it). Flowerparty☀ 10:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

General remark by nominator Thanks for all the comments and hard work from editors who have and are still stepping in with valueable copyediting. In order not to hide this between all the responses, I make the statement here: I am, in conformity with massive, and reasonable, requests, preparing a section on Zappa's legacy. Due to the general time pressures of having a regular life, as well as keeping track of the kind comments that come in regularly these days, I would like to make the unsual request to the handling editor of giving me a few days to complete it before making a final decision on the nomination. I will do my very best to finish it up this week. The only excuse I can come up with for this extraordinary request, is that it seems that due to holidays, many editors have first started commenting on the article lately, whereby the suggestion for a legacy section, did not come forth immediately. Kind regards, --HJensen, talk 09:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I see the FAC has been closed and the article was not promoted. I will try wo continue working on the legacy, and renew the nomination later. THANKS TO ALL WHO PUT TONS OF EFFORT INTO THIS!!!!!!--HJensen, talk 09:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am so sorry to see this. I wonder that a little more time was not give as it is so very often for others. Especially as we almost had the legacy section done. Other than your resubmission of this article (or others by you) I will never work on an FAC article again. The rash of complaints at the very end of FAC were muddled and rediculous, from my point of view. I can only think there is an enormous generation gap (perhaps one of 40 years or so) and mature articles, unless they have there preformed clique ready to support (the FAR in-group where passage is guarrenteed), will not pass. I cannot express how screwed up this FAC process has been. To compare an article on a multimedia artist originating in the 1950s which a one-instrument musician in one band with careers of less than 10 or 20 years is a travesty. This is a farce. —Mattisse (Talk) 10:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. The comment on "lyrical themes" is an example of a particularly off-base criticism. But as good a reason as any to close the FAC. Has this person examined Zappa's work before commenting? Does this person not realize that Zappa was as important as a social critic and satirists as a percussionist, guitarist, composer, orchastra leader, film maker, TV personality and on and on? —Mattisse (Talk) 10:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can but only agree with the above comments. I was going to add a comment about maintaining the NPOV as there seems to be a drift towards people with seemingly little knowledge of the subject suggesting that their own limited point of view be included within the article. Zappa once said "My job is extrapolating everything to its most absurd extreme." I guess he is still doing it. Lame Name (talk) 11:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment - I would like to ask why the when the Frusciante article (a much less ambitious and more superficial piece but which was repeatedly held up as a model for this one), has several non-free images, and no consistent citation style (something User_talk:HJensen had to spend a lot of time fixing because of constant complaints in the FAC) sailed through with no complaints on these issues for Frusciante, at least, none that anyone bothered to fix). And a huge section on his drug problem! There is something wrong with this whole FAC process. Very cliquish. —Mattisse (Talk) 11:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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