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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Discography of the Final Fantasy VII series/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Raul654 04:12, 19 February 2009 [1].

Discography of the Final Fantasy VII series

edit
Nominator(s): PresN
First FAC, first PR, second PR

I'm bringing this article back for another round at FAC. I believe that I have addressed the concerns expressed in the prior FAC, and that the article is now much better for it. I welcome all concerns and critiques, and will attempt to respond promptly. --PresN 17:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notes on sources used in the article

Owned by Craveonline Media, LLC, which is in turned owned by AtomicOnline, LLC, which is a smallish media conglomerate that runs several dozen sites in three distinct areas (men 18-34, women 25-54, teens) with 13 million+ unique pageviews a month across their main sites. Article talking about them.
A subdivision of Cerberus Media Group Inc., a Florida corporation formed to provide a backing company for the site. I have contacted both the head of the music reviews section as well as their marketing director, who both have said that all of their reviews are edited and fact-checked for accuracy, cross-checked and cited against other legitimate news sites whenever possible, and are also corrected if any error is later found.
Independent music review site (not affiliated with Square Enix itself) - about page says that they have "achieved critical acclaim from famous composers, eminent producers, and industry sites", a claim that is backed up by their interviews page, listing interviews they have done with notable people such as Yasunori Mitsuda and Thomas Boecker, producer of the Symphonic Game Music Concert series. Their submissions guidelines are here, in which they specifically say that they edit all reviews for factual accuracy.
11 year old remix hosting and production site recognized and contributed to by many industry professionals. Press comments. Run under OverClocked ReMix LLC.

Comments The summary above is distilled from the previous FAC, which basically left the sources above for other reviewers to decide for themselves on their reliability. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:32, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hidden templates throughout (they don't mirror). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on criterion 3

  • All images have verifiable licenses and/or sufficient fair use rationales in addition to adequate descriptions. Awadewit (talk) 00:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Final Fantasy VII Original Soundtrack.jpg - You need to alter the description of how this infobox is used. For example, this sentence is inaccurate: "The image is placed in the infobox at the top of the article discussing the work, to show the primary visual image associated with the work, and to help the user quickly identify the work and know they have found what they are looking for."
  • This is just a generic template. I would suggest removing it and writing one specifically for this article, which outlines what critical commentary this image is accompanying. For help writing purposes of use, see this dispatch, particularly the section at the end. Awadewit (talk) 18:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll rewrite it in the morning, though I would note that the whole point of that template is to use it for situations like this. --PresN 05:33, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure I understand why we need this clip. The fair use rationale states that it is necessary "to convey the style and elements of the soundtrack's instrumental (MIDI) audio" but the article states that this piece was "fully re-recorded with an orchestra and choir", so I expected to hear the orchestra and choir version. Why is the MIDI version included?
  • The clip is from the original OST, It's in the section for the next album to avoid creating an unseemly white space gap between the two sections, or squeezing the text. Re-titled it to make it clearer. --PresN 05:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think we need to strengthen this further. It seems that any clip could demonstrate what MIDI is. Is there another reason to include this particular clip? Awadewit (talk) 19:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added a bit to the FUR. --PresN 21:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully we can resolve these issues quickly. Awadewit (talk) 15:20, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • User:AnOddName has gone and fixed the FURs for those two, are they acceptable now? --PresN 19:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support The overall article is concise and very informative, flowing smoothly and detailing the information enough for a casual reader fresh to the material to understand, and ends with a solid section discussing the legacy of the music. Only thing I can really point out is that you might tweak ref 36 now (Toshiba-Emi is now EMI Music Japan, and the link needs fixing appropriately. But beyond that I support this for a featured article.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, and I have fixed the ref now. --PresN 01:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It says Last Order and Before Crisis were produced as tie-ins to Crisis Core, but CC was made after those two. The way the sentence is worded seems to make it sound as if they were produced afterwards. Also, despite the name, I believe BC starts after CC. While CC ends up revolving and reaching its climax at the Nibelheim incident, BC takes place primarily before, which probably is where the title comes from. But, Crisis Core starts 7 years before FFVII and Before Crisis starts 6 years before. Other than that, though, the article looks good. WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 03:07, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's been reworded to reflect this. --PresN 21:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Good job! WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 05:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support. An excellent article about some of the greatest music in video game history. I did a little copy-editing, but there are still some issues:

  • “Very well received” – I have seen this several times in the article, and it’s misleading to me. By saying “very” it gives me the impression that many critics did a review of the albums and gave uniform positive reviews. But there are very few who actually reviewed the albums. “Well received” is sufficient IMO.
  • Changed. --PresN 20:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was rated by IGN as the best song from the entire Final Fantasy series. – I think this fits better in the reception section of “Original Soundtrack”.
  • Changed. --PresN 21:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the catalog numbers of the albums necessary? I don’t see them as particularly useful.
  • Changed. --PresN 20:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other notable tracks include "Main Theme of Final Fantasy VII", themes from which play during several other tunes from the soundtrack, such as "Words Drowned by Fireworks", to tie the soundtrack together. – I don't understand this sentence.
  • Reworked. --PresN 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both Aeris’s Theme and Aerith’s Theme are used throughout the article. Is this because her name changed later in the series?
  • Yes, though I also misspoke a couple of times- her name is "Aeris" for everything related to the original game, which is reflected in the track name on the soundtrack album/piano album. It changes to "Aerith" for all subsequent titles.
  • Fully re-recorded – What does this mean? Is "fully" necessary?
  • Dropped the fully. --PresN 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • “Covering a variety of thematic types such as marches, New Age themes, and jazz.” – What do you mean by types? Genres perhaps?
  • Changed. --PresN 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • As three of the tracks from this album were reused in the soundtrack to Final Fantasy VII Advent Children, reviewers have speculated that the album was produced with the intention to provide tunes for Advent Children. – Not only reviewers speculate about this, but also fans. I think you can say: “it has been speculated that…” instead.
  • Changed. --PresN 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The limited edition of the soundtrack includes a case which is designed to hold the soundtrack, along with the game disc and the limited edition of the "Redemption" single and associated DVD, although these other items are not included with the album. – Does this mean that the limited edition didn’t actually include these extra items, just the space for it?
  • Yes- I tried to clarify it. --PresN 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was Ishimoto's first major work, with his only previous soundtrack score the cell phone game prequel to Crisis Core, Before Crisis: Final Fantasy VII, the soundtrack to which was released after that of Core. – This statement reads awkward and doesn’t seem to be correct, as Ishimoto previously scored The World Ends with You, a major work.
  • Ah, I missed that- you're right, TWEWY was released a few months earlier. Reworked. --PresN 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII Original Soundtrack was poorly received by critics, with Gann praising Ishimoto for writing "an excellent soundtrack" and being especially happy with the quality of the arrangements of Uematsu's pieces. – Shouldn’t the first part of the sentence be preceded with a negative comment? Otherwise it doesn’t make any sense. Also, this is the first time I’m informed about arrangements of Uematsu’s pieces; I think this needs to be stated in the first paragraph of the section for better understanding.
  • Changed, and it is in the first paragraph- "The soundtrack also includes a large number of arrangements of tunes from the original Final Fantasy VII score". --PresN 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • He did, however, note that because his original works were more ambient, Ishimoto's arrangements, and by extension Uematsu's work, far outshone his own new contributions. – I’m not sure if you’re talking about Ishimoto or Uematsu with “his original works” and “his own new contributions”. Needs to be clarified.
  • Changed. --PresN 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before Crisis served as a prequel to Crisis Core, while Last Order was a side story to the game… – Isn’t it a side story to the original FFVII?
  • It's sort of a side story to everything. --PresN 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before Crisis was Ishimoto's first soundtrack – According to [2], World Fantastista was his first soundtrack. This part of the sentence doesn’t seem relevant to the rest of the sentence anyway, so I’d remove it.
  • Removed. --PresN 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • especially as the best tracks were used in the Crisis Core soundtrack and not repeated in this album. – Reads as POV with “best tracks”.
  • Changed. --PresN 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are two people on SEMO called Chris, one born in 1992[3] and one in 1987[4]. Both of them are referred to as “Chris” in the article so it may seem that they are the same person. Maybe if you include (also known as “Dark Cloud”) after 1992 Chris as he uses that name on SEMO.
  • Changed. --PresN 21:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Once these concerns have been addressed, I'll gladly vote support. The Prince (talk) 19:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I beleive that I have addressed all of your concerns. --PresN 21:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great work. I only have one last comment: "It was Ishimoto's second major work, after the soundtrack to The World Ends with You; the only title he has been the sole composer for previously was the cell phone game Before Crisis: Final Fantasy VII." – Here, do you mean the sole composer of BC before TWEWY or before CC? If it's TWEWY, it's correct, but if it's CC, it's not, since Kazuhiko Toyama was the co-composer of that soundtrack. Needs to be clarified. The Prince (talk) 22:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, done. --PresN 00:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, changed to support. The Prince (talk) 00:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Why is it that you feel the original soundtrack should be the only one to have identifying art? Are the other albums non-notable? Similarly for the musical samples. Final Fantasy 7 has spanned over a decade and is a series within its own right as the article's title identifies. Are the Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus soundtrack(s) similar in style to the original soundtrack? Does it play with the same themes? If so, then further soundbytes may not be needed, but with the range of composers in play, I would have expected a few more. You were involved fleetingly in a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content/Archive_38#Album_cover_images_in_video_game_discographies, you may wish to revisit that discussion if the dearth of identifying art is artificially self imposed. - hahnchen 03:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Artificially self-imposed? It's certainly imposed, but not self-imposed. I would, personally, love to have all of the "Discography of FF#" articles renamed to "Music of" and put all of the album art back in. I know, however, that I'd get a ton of argument and opposes here at the FAC if I did. If you want a crusade I'm all for it, but please don't use this FAC as part of it. --PresN 07:05, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this case, I think musical samples are more important than identifying art. I've listened to snippets from the Crisis Core soundtrack (on the Warner Music website), given that there's a new main theme, a new composer, and it's not midi, I would have uploaded a sample. I have not listened to any of the other albums. There's an obvious difference between this and a list discography, self censorship is not a good thing. I do not think you should be jumping through artificial hoops in order to pander to potential FAC comments which may not be entirely relevant. - hahnchen 12:36, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - The main issue I have with this article though, is the lack of reception information from its country of origin. I'm not too familiar with video game soundtracks, but I do know that they are a lot more popular in Japan than in the West (as is Final Fantasy). Surely, there are better, more authoritative sources for reviews in Japan than RPGFan? I would oppose a video game article if it did not include any reception from its home market, and am doing the same here. - hahnchen 03:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
While this isn't an article I've worked on, I would be quick to point out for the sake of argument that the video game project currently lists no such soundtrack review sources in Japan. I would equally stress that it seems somewhat negligent of you to oppose on the grounds of no sources from the home country without presenting any proof that such sources even exist, especially when there are very few citable sources on even an English-speaking front discussing this material.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd argue with you on two points, Hahnchen. One- this is the English-language wikipedia, and I don't speak Japanese. I'd love to have more reception, but I have a hard enough time finding it in languages that I can read. If you know of any sources for soundtrack reviews, please tell me. Two, this is different from a video game- the music almost exclusively has no words, and is not stylistically tied to Japanese culture. Anyone can review the music, in the context that it was originally meant, regardless of the language they speak. --PresN 07:05, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Video game soundtracks gained their original popularity in Japan, the Final Fantasy series is more popular in Japan and it's arguable that there are stronger cultural ties. I was more hesitant to oppose, given my unfamiliarity with the albums, and a lack of substantiation for Japanese sources. But when I oppose an article on a Japanese video game because it contains no reception from the country of origin, I too am just assuming that Famitsu et al. have reviewed it. It is incredibly likely, almost certain, that these albums have been covered in the Japanese press. Regarding Kung Fu Man's comment, that there are very few citable English sources is exactly why we should be looking elsewhere. - hahnchen 12:36, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • But there hasn't been anything presented indicating such reviews occur through citable soruces on the Japanese front at this time. This feels much like how some editors would oppose a game article for FAC when it lacks sales data, when in many cases such information is impossible to get. If there's no evidence such sources exist to be cited then what's the point of opposing on the assumption they must exist?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 12:50, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly. You say that you oppose FACs for articles about Japanese video games, because you can assume that Famitsu, a magazine that you know about and that is considered reliable, has reviewed the game, and that the editor of the article needs to prove it hasn't to justify its absence from the article. For this article, you're opposing, not because you have any proof or strong suggestion that there is a reliable Japanese review source for video game soundtracks, but because you think there should be. I'm sorry, but I can't find soundtrack reviews that are a) from Japan and b) from reliable sources without knowing the language or at the very least knowing of specific places that would satisfy the criteria. Since you do not know of any places either, this is not an actionable oppose, in that there is no action that I can take to satisfy it. This is the English Wikipedia, and English sources will just have to do. --PresN 22:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - We cannot assume there are more references and content simply because the section is small, and after the effort to find reliable sources using a strict standard, the section may very well stay that size and still be comprehensive. The other areas of the article meet the featured article criteria as well. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 03:43, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support - Some minor issues, you'll shouldn't have any trouble:
  • These albums are to date the only ones based on the soundtrack to the original game - This is a muddy sentence, anyway to clear it up?
  • Other notable tracks include "Main Theme of Final Fantasy VII" - Without a reference, this is POV.
  • showing some of the same elements from Crisis Core and Final Fantasy VII from an alternate viewpoint - What elements are these? Musical? Story? -- Noj r (talk) 06:45, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done, done, and done. --PresN 07:19, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to Support, great work. - Noj r (talk) 18:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I'm not particularly impressed with the prose, among other issues.
    • "received very positive reviews from critics" Surely we can find more encylopedic intensifiers than "very"?
    • "from the Original Soundtrack" Why is this capitalized? And which "original soundtrack" is this referring to?
    • "remain popular today" spot the redundancy
    • "Nobuo Uematsu composed and produced the music of Final Fantasy VII in less than one year, although he had taken two years to create the soundtrack for the previous title" But this is not what the given source says; the source says: "It is true, Uematsu was only given less than a year to write this music whereas he was given 2 to write FFVI (I know this sounds awkward, but apparently it's correct)."
      • He was given time periods. This does not mean he necessarily met these requirements.
      • The source says the time period was given to write the music (different from composing and producing).
      • The source seems far from authoritative on this ("apparently it's correct"??).
      • "Less than one year" is far from specific. What does that mean? Six months? 11 months? 3 months?
    • Over-reliance on the perfect tense, when the simple past tense is stronger.
    • I am not convinced that http://www.squareenixmusic.com/ is a reliable source. You state above in response to Ealdgyth that "they specifically say that they edit all reviews for factual accuracy." This is not true. What they say is that "All submitted reviews are subject to editing by the webmaster. This is intended to optimise their clarity, conciseness, level of detail, factual accuracy, spelling, and grammar." Not the same thing. Being subject to editing by the websmaster (one random individual? This Chris guy, whose e-mail is given?) is not the same thing as having an editorial process that forces submissions to undergo editing. That the authors do not list their full names is also disconcerting.
    • "Uematsu took it as a good sign" Informal, colloquial language.
    • Well-received and well-done should be hyphenated; I corrected one instance, but needs attention throughout the article.
    • "The lyrics of "One-Winged Angel", a Latin choral track which plays at the climax of the game, were taken from the medieval poetry Carl Orff based his Carmina Burana on, respectively the songs" Such an awkward sentence. Comma before which or use that. "on which Carl Orff" is less awkward, than "based...on", if you switch the first which to that. Respectively makes no sense here, and only adds to the awkwardness.
    • The discussion of the music is often superficial, and the quotations used from reviewers feature generic language such as "memorable", "beautiful", "amazing", "excellent", "spectacular", and even "very worth the purchase"(!!), that is far from informative. Where is some musical analysis of the tracks?
    • ""harsh and in-your-face" to "stunning and lovely", but were primarily used as ambient background music." Where is the citation for these quotations?
    • Note that the above prose examples are just that: examples. Please don't just fix those. Audit the whole text. BuddingJournalist 22:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've gone through and fixed the specific language problems you mention; I will audit the rest of the text soon. --PresN 22:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The prose just isn't polished enough to meet 1a.. little glitches and oddities all over. It really needs some solid time with a fresh copyeditor. Just from one sample section:
    • "combined soundtrack album" and "same story elements" Spot the extra words.
    • "The album spans 27 tracks, of which the first 12 are from the game and the remainder are from the animation." Grammar.
    • "... with some tunes based on works from Final Fantasy VII by Uematsu." Grammar.
    • "The album covers a duration of 63:48." This type of unnecessary wordiness is found throughout.
  • Also:
    • The collapsing tables are god-awful. They look like someone typed a heading and forgot the content. The reader's eye is not drawn miles off to the "show" link unless by accident.
    • The citation in a table of data should not go after the heading, it should go in a proper footer row.
--Laser brain (talk) 02:29, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I'm not wild about those collapsing tables either, sharing Laser Brain's concern that it looks as if "someone typed a heading and forgot the content". The prose could do with another pass too, but of concern are the sources listed at the top of this FAC page for reviewer consideration. Insufficient justification is given for the use of at least two. OverClocked ReMix I think I'm OK with, but in answer to questions over the reliability of rpgamer.com you basically point to the site itself and the company that owns it. The easiest way of demonstrating the site's reliability is to find an article from a more mainstream source, independent of the website (e.g. large-circulation newspaper), that explicitly names the site as reliable for the sort of information for which it's being used in this article. The "article talking about them" is a press release from the company itself and does not count as an independent arbiter of the site's reliability. Similarly, concerns over rpgfan.com are put aside by your statement that you "have contacted both the head of the music reviews section as well as their marketing director" to determine its reliability. This doesn't quite cut it. After all, I wouldn't expect them to say that their site isn't reliable or fact-checked for accuracy. All the best, Steve T • C 23:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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