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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Amir Hamzah/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 10:01, 5 October 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Amir Hamzah edit

Amir Hamzah (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s):  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:37, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I think it is ready for FA after a couple months work. Amir was easily the most prominent poet of his contemporaries and has served as an influence for generations of Indonesian poets. He's also a national hero, something which I don't see the number one most famous Indonesian poet, Chairil Anwar, ever achieving. I think you'll find his story a tragic one, and perhaps tissues will be needed. This article has had some input from Dr. Blofeld, as well as a peer review from Tim Riley and SchroCat. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:37, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Jim Usual polished work. I have no knowledge of the subject, but it reads well. I'm afraid I didn't cry. Inevitably, a few niggles before I support Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:54, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • (28 February 1911[a] – 20 March 1946)—the positioning of the note is unaesthetic and contra MoS. Much better outside the parentheses.
  • his studies to legal school—"to" seems odd. At? In?
  • own Islam and Malay culture, —Islamic.
  • Islam as a religion, not a culture. Reordered. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:19, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • near one of the ones in which Amir boarded. —yuk, one of those, I think.
  • several conditions... be a diligent student and abandon the independence movement—Are two conditions "several"?
  • 10 kilometres (6.2 mi) —The 10 km looks like a rough approximation, so 6 mi is probably more appropriate.
  • Check that each use of "however" is justified.
  • Jassin cited text is missing location (Jakarta).
  • Albany or Albany NY? Stick to one version, and, if you keep the state, write it in full.

Support – I reviewed this article for GA and again at Peer Review. By the time of the latter, where my comments (few and minor) were thoroughly dealt with, the article seemed to me to be of FA quality. Reading it once again now and checking it against the FAC criteria I am confirmed in my view that it is a deserving candidate for promotion. – Tim riley (talk) 12:08, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for the reviews, they've made the article flow much better! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:09, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Squeamish Ossifrage - Just a few comments here, as this is in quite excellent shape already:

Extended content
  • In the Dini reference, should Pangerang be Pangeran? That's what WorldCat has, and what Google Translate thinks, but Indonesian is certainly not my language!
  • You're right, my brain fart (I was probably thinking of "author", which is pengarang). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:01, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Foulcher reference, 1933-142 should be 1933-1942, I assume?
  • Correct again. Fixed both here and in Poedjangga Baroe — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:01, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed, as that's who Hikayat Amir Hamzah is about. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:01, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's also a Persian dastan (although, come to think of it, that may be the origin material for Hikayat Amir Hamzah). And a few sources seem to discuss Hamza ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib in a non-fictionalized capacity under that name. But, in any case, not going to quibble. Hatlink target selection is hardly a topic for FAC. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 15:35, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, the Hikayat was taken from Persian literature (brought by Arab Muslim traders, then promulgated as Islam spread through Sumatra). Hamza ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib may have been a real person (Islam teaches him as such), but he's also been heavily fictionalised. It's not too rare for fictional depictions of major historical figures to show up in classic Malay literature... Hikayat Iskandar Zulkarnain (about Alexander the Great) is one that's interested me simply because it depicts Alexander as a Muslim active several hundred years before Muhammad (another import from Persia too). But yes, classic Malay literature is not the subject at hand. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:47, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article's survey of Indonesian literature is unquestionably comprehensive, although I've run across a few additional Western sources that might have something to add:
    • Sutherland, Heather (1968). "Pudjangga Baru: Aspects of Indonesian Intellectual Life in the 1930s". Indonesia (6): 106–127. JSTOR 3350714. I don't actually have access to this one from my present location, but it is the most potentially pertinent scholarly journal article I could scare up.
      • I've actually cited that one at Poedjangga Baroe. She does talk about Amir, but the biographical stuff is fairly light and (if I'm not misremembering) already covered by the other sources. The article's mostly about the magazine. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:01, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Siapno, Jaqueline Aquino (2002). Gender, Islam, Nationalism and the State in Aceh: The Paradox of Power, Co-optation and Resistance. New York: Routledge. pp. 72–73. ISBN 978-0700715138. Not a whole lot here, but a couple of pages that discuss Amir Hamzah's subversive language regarding women and the ruling order that might have a home in the discussion of the themes of his work.
      • Dr. Blofeld actually included a reference to Siapno earlier, though I've hidden it as she does not seem to discuss his poetry so much as his short stories (which are not widely read today, and thus would be undue weight in this article). Will see if I can find the source offline (Google isn't working) again to double check and maybe massage the paragraph back into the text. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:01, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Amir Hamzah's life and work were evidently among the sources adapted into the 1992 play Biografi Yanti Setelah 12 Menit: Bodden, Michael H. (2010). Resistance on the National Stage: Theater and Politics in Late New Order Indonesia. Athens, OH: Ohio University Press. ISBN 978-0896802759. Not sure if it's sufficiently notable or relevant, but sort of tripped over it while trying to see if there had been a film adaptation of his life (I would have thought so, but it seems not). Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 15:52, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, no biopic yet (or even a documentary, that I'm aware of...). Afrizal Malna is notable (and has an article, to my surprise) and the play has been discussed in several sources, so I think it might be worth a mention. However, I should note that he doesn't seem to have been a character in the play, but rather his poems were source material. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:32, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The reference quibbles are just that, and I'm happy to support the article as it stands; my efforts to locate additional sources to contribute are by no means an implication that the article is insufficiently comprehensive as it stands. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 14:09, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you very much for the review and support! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:01, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Collapsed my comments. Even my quibbling little issues have been more than satisfied, and I'm happy that a couple of spare sources I drug up were worth giving a home. No objections, and my enthusiastic support. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 16:49, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I also had my say at PR, where my few points were picked up. A further read through shows this to be a strong article and worthy of FA. – SchroCat (talk) 15:09, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - mostly all OK (PD-Indonesia, PD-India). Sources and authors provided. 1 question and 1 somewhat bigger issue:

  • File:Amir_Hamzah_portrait_edit.jpg ==> How was "c. 1935" established for this photo? Would be good to add that info to the image summary aswell, it only has "undated, < 1946" at the moment.
  • File:Ilik_Sundari_by_Amir_Hamzah.jpg ==> This image is beautiful and adds great encyclopedic value to the article, but i am afraid, it fails WP:NFCC #8. It provides important visual context, but does not strictly add to the reader's understanding of Amir Hamzah (and is not about the article topic, so the identification argument wouldn't work either). It would be "fair use" anywhere else, but Wikipedia fair-use is a lot more restrictive. Suggestions: Maybe the book source has some info about the photo's origin? If it was previously published somewhere else, fair-use might be unnecessary. Or if you want, i can nominate the image at WP:Non-free content review and ask for more input. GermanJoe (talk) 12:02, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm prepared to defend the Sundari image's fair use in this article. First, about the image. It appears that Dini, when writing her book, interviewed Amir's daughter. Amir kept a scrapbook / photo album (as mentioned in our article) with his pictures in Java – including photographs of Ilik. These appear to have been first published in Dini's book, as before then they would have been in the album (she does not quote her source though). When Jassin was writing (the closest to the 1970 cutoff date for Indonesian photographs to be PD in the US), Amir's family and friends had not admitted that Ilik was Amir's Javanese lover, and thus a photograph of her would almost certainly not have been published.
    • Now, regarding the use of the image in this article: that she posed, willingly, for Amir, while he photographed her, is even more depictive of their relationship than the photographs I've seen of the two together (where they are always part of a crowd). The way she's looking at him, the way she's smiling, it's fairly clear that there's more than just friendship happening. There relationship (how close they were) is a key part of this article. At worst, Ilik could be move down to the inspirations section and we could remove Tagore.
    • Have clarified the other image on the description page. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:28, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree, I think its a very valuable photograph.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:53, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note - i have nominated the image in question for a more in-depth review at Wikipedia:Non-free_content_review#File:Ilik_Sundari_by_Amir_Hamzah.jpg based on WP:NFCC. Please offer your feedback about the image's fair-usage status there. GermanJoe (talk) 07:25, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for the notice. I note that this sort of thing can take upwards of a month. Delegates, thoughts on having an image up for review and its role in the FAC? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:54, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • As discussed on FA-talk, the non-free situation will be evaluated outside of this nomination (tending keep) and shouldn't hold up this process. GermanJoe (talk) 07:44, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the content is complete than Indonesin Wikipedia, so I say support. Hanamanteo (talk) 02:12, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • FN29, 61, 101: page formatting
  • Be consistent in whether page ranges are abbreviated
  • Location for Lindsay?
  • Balfas is the only ref to include publisher country; it might help to add a few more, and some US states. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:53, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just went with removing them. I could see having New York for Ithaca and Indonesia for Yogyakarta, Bandung, and Ende, but I think it's better to leave it plain. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:10, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I don't have much to add, just a few minor issues and questions:

  • Capitalise "vice sultan".
  • Shouldn't fiqh and tawhid be italicised?
  • Italicised in corresponding articles, so done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:25, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given the fact that Hamzah was schooled in fiqh, was he a sharia judge? Or did he serve in the civil court? I mean, there isn't much written about his legal education, so I guess he was an Islamic jurist.
  • The Rechtschool was Dutch-run, so I highly doubt he would have gotten Sharia law from there. It would have been based in European legal tradition. I'm thinking, based on the sources (but not explicitly stated in them) that as a judge Amir would have emphasised traditional (adat) law, maintained by the nobility, which isn't quite the same (though naturally there are shariah influences). He would have likely used the Dutch-style law only in cases where the Indies government was interested. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:25, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think this is readily apparent to the reader. Given that Indonesia is a heavily Muslim society, that Hamzah was the son of a vice-sultan (who, as the leader of Muslims, is expected to know the sharia), and that Hamzah was schooled in fiqh (as I have said above), I think it would be reasonable to assume he was a sharia judge unless mentioned otherwise or unless the reader knew the exact legal system implemented in Indonesia under the Dutch (although, admittedly, had he been a sharia judge, Hamzah would have had a full beard haha). Please be clear about the nature of his court duties. Perhaps an explanatory note could be added? --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 06:48, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, "not explicitly stated in [the sources]". A footnote to that effect would be OR and should not be included. Sources focus on Amir as a poet, mostly, and as such his courtly duties (for the nobility or in law) have been completely ignored in the literature. At worst I'll just remove the sentence to avoid leaving readers wondering. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:54, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't remove it, it's my fault. I didn't read your response closely enough. Sorry for that. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 09:48, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did Hamzah, as a Muslim, perform Hajj?
    • No mention of him going on the hajj, and Indonesians love honorifics so if no Indonesian sources style him as Hj. Amir Hamzah I think it's a safe bet he didn't. He was still quite young when he died, so he may not have had time. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:25, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check (2) - all OK (2 new images), just one minor improvement needed:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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