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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1st Cavalry Division (Kingdom of Yugoslavia)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14 March 2020 [1].

1st Cavalry Division (Kingdom of Yugoslavia) edit

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:39, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Yugoslav formation that fought briefly during the Axis invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941. It has previously undergone a Milhist A-Class review, so hopefully the rough edges have been knocked off it. It forms part of a Good Topic that will become Featured if this nomination is successful. Have at it! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:39, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Have to say, even at full size I had a hard time spotting the red 10 in File:Yugo_History_map_of_invasion_7th_Army.jpg given the overlapping text. Any chance it could be edited to make it more obvious? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:13, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
  • What makes Leo Niehorster a reliable source? It looks like a self-published website. buidhe 21:19, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild edit

  • "a horsed cavalry formation" As opposed to an unhorsed cavalry formation? Perhaps a touch of redundancy there? It also has "cavalry" twice in six words. Yes, I understand that there are and have been "cavalry" formations with few or no horses, but I think that many readers will stumble over this without further explanation.
  • Well, concurrently there were motorised, mechanised and/or armoured cavalry formations in other armies, so horsed cavalry is needed here IMHO. Have trimmed some instances of cavalry. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:58, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ho, hum. OK.
  • "combat and supporting units" Optional: "supporting" reads oddly to me. 'support'?
  • "were then disarmed by armed Croat" I don't have a better suggestion, but that is mildly jarring.
  • "Infantry divisions had a wartime strength of 26,000–27,000 men,[4] as compared to contemporary British infantry divisions of half that strength." I'm not sure why this is in the background of a cavalry division.
  • "Peacetime organisation" Was the peacetime organisation 2 brigades and 4 regiments; or 2 brigades consisting of 4 regiments. The article currently reads as the former so if that was the case, fine.
Well, yeah. I assumed so. But that hypothetical average reader out there ...
  • Is the actual strength of the peacetime formation known?
In which case I am a bit twitchy about you giving "6,000–7,000 officers and men" in the lead, when this was only its paper strength for a few days and it was never achieved.
I assume you mean in the infobox, deleted from there. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:22, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I do. I did. Thanks.
  • "the 1st Cavalry Division forming the bulk of the reserve for the 1st Army Group"; two sentences later "The 1st Cavalry Division was to be held as the 1st Army Group reserve".
  • "The Yugoslav defence plan saw both armies" The previous sentence mentions two armies, but I suspect that these aren't the "both armies" you are referring to. Maybe 'the 1st Army Group' instead?
  • "to be held as the 1st Army Group reserve around Zagreb"; in the same paragraph "he reserve for the 1st Army Group would be located in and around Zagreb".
  • "detailing the plan of attack and command structure" → 'detailing the plan of attack and the command structure'.
  • You don't say when the formation came into existence.
Any reason why that couldn't be stated? Possibly in pretty much those words?
Well, it is an assumption, so I wouldn't have a source to cite for it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:23, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have access to Jarman, Robert L., ed. (1997a). Yugoslavia Political Diaries 1918–1965, volume 1? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:34, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have scans of parts of it from my work on the Royal Yugoslav Navy, they hold it at one of the uni libraries in town. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:38, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It may be worth having a look at page 527. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:44, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well spotted, I do have a scan of that page. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:20, 7 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 16:08, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look at this, Gog. See what you think of my edits. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:58, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looking good. Well up to your usual standards.

Nb, it is my intention to use this review to claim points for the WikiCup.

Gog the Mild (talk) 13:12, 7 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from AustralianRupert edit

Support: G'day, PM, I hope you are well. I have had a look at this at GAN and ACR. I see that it has improved further since then. I have following suggestions/observations/questions: AustralianRupert (talk) 05:23, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • suggest adding the 1921 establishment date to the lead
  • Done.
  • With regards to the pin map, I wonder if potentially some other reference point could/should be added? For instance, the loc of Zagreb if that isn't the one already depicted; and or some other major city to provide a little more context?
  • Clarified that the division loc is Zagreb and added Belgrade, the Yugoslav capital.
  • The 1st Cavalry Division was to deployed --> "The 1st Cavalry Division was be to deployed"? or "The 1st Cavalry Division was to deploy"?
  • Fixed.
  • Armed fifth column Ustase groups and German troops disarmed the division and its attached units before they could establish any coherent defence along the Sava: did the division offer any resistance to this? If there was resistance, do we know if the division suffered any casualties?
  • The principal source on this (Terzić) doesn't say. Info about Yugoslav casualties during the invasion is very sparse, as many records were lost in the ensuing occupation and civil war.
  • after the surrender, is there any information on what happened to the division's troops? I assume they were taken prisoner, or maybe returned to civilian life under the occupation?
  • Added a bit about the Croats being released but the Serbs being held. This applied across the board, numbers aren't known for this formation though. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:47, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • was the formation a regular, part-time or mixed formation prior to mobilisation? I get the impression that it was largely hollow prior to mobilisation, but I might be wrong? If it was a part-time or mixed formation, what sort of ongoing training commitments were required during peacetime?
  • Some were full-time (so they could be used for public order work as necessary) and it was more of a cadre-type arrangement for other sabre regiments, so it was mixed I suppose. The training requirement was very complicated, which is why I haven't tried to explain it in any formation articles thus far, I'm leaving it for the Royal Yugoslav Army article when I get to it. Different types of troops had different obligations, even within a single division, and the obligations for different types of troops changed over time.
  • Potentially, a single sentence in the peacetime organisation section might do it, IMO. For instance, "The division's units were manned by a mixture of full-time and part-time personnel". Or something similar. AustralianRupert (talk) 08:08, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:31, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, looks good. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:22, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • logistics units: do we know what type (supply, transport, medical/veterinary etc) and how many?
  • The sources don't say, other than a transport battalion. Added that.
  • ext links all work (no action required)
  • there are no dab or dup links (no action required)
  • all information appears to be referenced (no action required)
  • "London, England" --> :London, United Kingdom"?
  • Done.

Thanks very much for taking a look at this, AustralianRupert. See if I've addressed your comments, here are my edits. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:47, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, nice work. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:08, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by CPA-5 edit

  • line southeast of Zagreb along the Sava river --> "line southeast of Zagreb along the Sava River"
  • The commander of the 1st Cavalry Division was Divizijski đeneral[b] Dragoslav Stefanović Was Stefanović the only commander of the division in those 20 years? If not maybe we should add more commanders here.
  • Sources don't give the names of commanders during peacetime, but this is in the Mobilisation section, so I think it is clear that we are talking about the division at the time of mobilisation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:16, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2nd Cavalry Regiment, based in Virovitica on the Drava river in Slavonia --> "2nd Cavalry Regiment, based in Virovitica on the Drava River in Slavonia"
  • Royal Yugoslav Army was laid down by regulations issued in 1936–37 -- "Royal Yugoslav Army was laid down by regulations issued in 1936–1937"
  • which was motorised and equipped with 47 mm anti-tank guns No imperial/US units?
  • logistics units, including a transport battalion This sentence need a full stop.
  • the eastern sector along the Hungarian border Pipe Hungary to the Kingdom of Hungary and unlink the later one.
  • the 4th Army behind the Drava river between Varaždin and Slatina --> " the 4th Army behind the Drava River between Varaždin and Slatina"
  • On 27 March, a military coup d'état overthrew the government that had signed the pact --> "Two days later, a military coup d'état overthrew the government that had signed the pact"
  • out of its bridgehead across the Drava river at Zákány
  • Yugoslavia was then occupied and dismembered by the Axis powers Link Axis.
  • prisoners of war were soon released by the Germans, as 90 percent of those held for the duration of the war were Serbs Not per cent?

I only have one comment here. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:37, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Thanks for taking a look, CPA-5. If you only found one thing to pick me up on, I'm very pleased! :) Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:40, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've made another look and I found more comments to address. ;) Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:27, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

G'day @FAC coordinators: , this is looking good. Can I have dispensation for a fresh nom please? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:41, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi PM, if either of my fellow coords have a different opinion, no prob, but personally I'd like to see something from another reviewer outside MilHist, or at least outside this area -- I realise Gog is more the medievalist viz. FAs but after his fine effort with Razing of Friesoythe I'm going to have to start lumping him in with the WWII crowd too... In any case, PM, I notice you've just been press-ganged into a collaborative FAC so perhaps that'll keep you going for a while... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:33, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nate has done the heavy lifting on the co-nom (I'm just there for the Yugoslav bits), so I am still at a bit of a loose end FAC-wise. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:02, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley edit

  • "two cavalry brigades commanding a total of four regiments" I do not understand this. Does it mean that the cavalry brigades consisted of four regiments or that the regiments were under the control of brigade headquarters?
  • The source doesn't explain what the allocation of the regiments to brigades was in peacetime. Logic would say two regiments to each brigade, but the basing makes me think it could have been three-one. The eventual war-time allocation supports the latter assumption. Can you suggest a better way of explaining that? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:17, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do not think it makes sense to speak of one body commanding another body. How about "the staff of two cavalry brigades commanding a total of four regiments"? Dudley Miles (talk) 09:02, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Along with the rest of the Yugoslav Army, the 1st Cavalry Division began mobilising on 3 April 1941" I think a few words explaining that this followed a coup against the pro-German government would be helpful.
  • Strictly speaking, I don't think the government could be described as pro-German. It was more that they had a realistic idea of what opposing Germany would involve given their complete isolation from any possible assistance and knowledge of the poor state of their forces compared to the Germans. Added a bit about the coup. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:17, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " who saw it as a means by which to secure Serb political hegemony" You mention below the Slovene and German minorities. I think it would be helpful to mention them here and whether the Serbs were a majority of the population.
  • They were actually 38% of the population at the time the kingdom was created in 1918, and that was only by counting Montenegrins as Serbs. Changed to "to secure political hegemony for the large Serb minority". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:17, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a chemical platoon". Was this for chemical defence or attack or both?
  • "After unrelenting pressure from Adolf Hitler, Yugoslavia signed the Tripartite Pact" I would clarify pressure to join the German side in WW2.
  • Thanks Dudley, all done I think except being open to suggestions regarding a better way of explaining the strength of the division mentioned in your first comment. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:17, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: , re: my above request, I think Dudley counts as being outside the WWII specialists, being an Anglo-Saxon period editor. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:58, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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